[MUSIC PLAYING – “Merci Kylian” by Laurent Dubois]
Ron Krabill: Hello and welcome to the sixth episode of the podcast of the Global Sport Lab. I’m Ron Krabill, and I’m your host, as well as the director of the Global Sport Lab and a professor in the School of Interdisciplinary Arts and Sciences at the University of Washington Bothell. Listen to the end for a more detailed description of the Global Sport Lab, but for now, we want to jump right into the heart of our conversation. We would love for you to connect with us at the Global Sport Lab, and you can find us on the web or at globalsportlab@uw.edu. So today we are coming to you from the campus of the African Leadership University in Kigali, Rwanda. Our guest is Che Rupari, the brand and campus manager for Zaria Court, an innovative sports and cultural district that has been built in the center of Kigali. Che will introduce himself and Zaria Court more in a moment, but for now, let me just say welcome, Che.
Che Rupari: Thank you.
Ron: I’m also joined today by my colleague at the University of Washington Bothell, Professor Ben Gardner. Ben, will you introduce yourself?
Ben Gardner I’m Ben Gardner, also Associate Professor at University of Washington Bothell and the School of Arts and Sciences, and I’m currently co-directing a study abroad program on nation building in Rwanda with Ron.
Ron: Great. Thanks so much. So, Che, can you start us out by introducing yourself a little bit more and describing the Zaria Court project for our listeners?
Che: I like how Ben introduced himself. I feel a lot of pressure now. So again, my name is Che Rupari, I’m a brand and campus manager at Zaria Court. Zaria Court is one of those first one type of ecosystem where it’s built to support arena and stadium. So it’s our founders, Masai Ujiri, ex-president of basketball, NBA Raptors, Toronto Raptors, and Andrew Feinstein and other partners involved. The impetus behind that is to create an ecosystem where you have retail, sports bar, basketball court, football pitches, kids’ playground, and hotel. It’s one of its kind across the continent. What’s exciting about this journey is that this could be replicated in other parts of the continent. So that’s the exciting part about the Zaria Court.
Ron: Fantastic, thanks. How do the new stadiums built around Zaria Court and Zaria Court itself fit into the Rwandan government’s approach to using sport, specifically as a tool for economic development?
Che: So I think, sometimes, when people think about sports, especially for young people, they always think it’s just a fun game and then there’s nothing else after that. A parent, if you tell them you want to pursue a career in football or sport-related activity, on an African continent, they usually panic, ring bells just goes off. I have a delinquent, I just lost my son or daughter to the streets, basically. The interesting part about the sports area is that there’s so much opportunity for entrepreneurship in general. When I look at Zaria Court, what we’re trying to do, the retail aspect that we have right now is to support entrepreneurs in different sectors, either from arts, fashion, hospitality as well, or F&B which is cafes. The look of it is how do we create job opportunity in a sports sector. There’s so many avenues open to that from planning, event planning. Aside from learning from sports, when you play sports you learn discipline, you learn collaboration, you learn teamwork, you learn failure, which is the impetus of any business or startup in general. You learn all those things which makes part of living on this planet Earth. The push for the government in sports sector, sports and entertainment in general, because one of the key areas that the country wants to grow in is the hospitality business. We want to be the hub for tourism, for proof of concept, for different industry in tech or in tourism or any innovative way to not only better our society or run the society and also inspire other part of the country. I don’t know if I’m answering it correctly, but yeah.
Ron: It’s beautiful.
Che: That’s the way.
Ron: No right or wrong answers.
Che: That’s my take of the vision.
Ron: Awesome.
Che: Yes.
Ron: Go ahead.
Ben: So we’ve had a chance to visit Zaria Court, we actually brought our students, and actually, last year, Ron and I were visiting and we got to see BK Arena and Amahoro Stadium just opened up. It seems like there was this real effort to place the stadiums and the arenas in this core downtown area, and we’re also seeing in other parts of Africa right now a lot of stadiums are being built in East Africa that are sort of outside the city. Can you just talk about the pros and cons of locating stadiums in the core downtown, far away? I mean, what was the debate, what was the discussion, how did it come to be that this is the central area for stadiums?
Che: Interesting enough, the area that we’re in, there’s already stadiums, Stadium Amahoro. And this is a building that was built in mid-70s, I think it was donated by the Chinese government, including one of the spaces that we have a Zaria Court, which is the hotel. It was two parts. It was the Stadium Amahoro and the Amahoro Hotel previously. When we looked at it, or our partners or my bosses looked at it, it’s like, how do we make these areas more vibrant? Because traditionally, when you look at those spaces, it’s people go to the stadium, watch a game and go home. How do you create ecosystems where people can just hang out, build community aspect of it? And in the case of Rwanda, it made more sense because there was already a stadium built in the middle of the city. Building somewhere outside, I don’t think it will be not only environmentally correct, is how do we create the space that we have now, make it better and accessible? And accessibility is also one of them, one of the key elements here. I don’t know what other places are on the continent when people build stadiums, people think about how accessible it is for everyone. For us, where we are located, you can either walk, it might be longer from [INAUDIBLE], but you can get there. Accessible to all modes of transportation here, especially with the modal transportation. Looking at it from our perspective, it made sense to enhance that area by putting Zaria Court.
Ron: A couple of times you’ve used the term ecosystem, and I think that’s a super interesting metaphor to use for what you’re building.
Che: Right.
Ron: Can you say a little more about why that term and what does it do for you as a brand, but also what are the ways in which it’s an ecosystem as opposed to just a building or just a development in a more traditional sense?
Che: Well, in my opinion, when you talk about ecosystem, it’s more than a building, because if you look at Zaria, we have multiple businesses within one space. We have the hospitality, which is the hotel. We have the sports activity, which is basketball court, football pitches as well. We have the sports bar. We have the retail aspect of it with the entrepreneur. Within that you actually have a small community, it’s like a small city. I usually say it’s an ecosystem, it’s a living environment. It’s more than a building. One of the reasons why I was attracted to even joining the new sector is what the opportunities of growing the sector aside from, yeah, I am in this cool building, I can shoot hoops whenever I want, but what is being built around it? The ecosystem, usually, for me, makes it more like it’s a living, breathing structure. What makes it breathing and living structure is because we have people involved in it. And I usually even push the aspect community. What we are building is community of entrepreneurs, artists, sports lovers, families who want to hang out there. All those things make it what the ecosystem is supposed to be, I think.
Ben: Great, yes.
Che: You guys are smarter, so you can tell me.
Ben: No, this is new to us.
Ron: No, that’s perfect. That’s perfect.
Ben: This is new to me. Another thing we’ve really noticed, Che, as we’ve been in Rwanda for a few weeks now is that this idea that so many people are coming together to rebuild the nation, and it’s being done in all these different ways. You talked about proof of concept, or this notion of can we show that we can do certain things in Rwanda. Could you just tell us more about even how something like Zaria court comes together? What are the types of partnerships? When people decide to invest in it, how much are they investing to prove that this could happen versus investing to make money? Could you just talk us through a bit of that dynamic?
Che: Well, I think when you look at the proof of concept aspect in Rwanda, let’s say Central, East Africa or Africa in general, for one, when people hear about the continent of Africa, they usually think probably 1,000 things. One of them usually is security, war, famine, all the things that will not make it attractive to come to visit any place. What the government of Rwanda, from my perspective, when I look at it, is to push how do we create an environment where both private and government can collaborate. For instance, for where I am, at Zaria, the building that we repurposed, the old hotel is part of the contribution from the government, the land being part of their investment. What Zaria Court, Zaria group does is just to build the infrastructure after that from the both government private relationship to the proof of concept. We look at is in a way that with how the countries run, the less corruption, ease of doing business, all those are the key elements that make an investment being attractive is that hey, just come here. If you have an idea, an entrepreneur in general, try it here, and if it works here, you can take it somewhere else. For instance, even the building where we are here, we had the history of Zipline. The Zipline, the provider of medicine across Rwanda. Their proof of concept was here in Kigali, was here in Rwanda. The drone technology, so flying medicine in remote area, those were tried here in Kigali and in Rwanda in general, and then years later became a multi-billion dollar industry. For Zaria as well, we are proving that, yes, you can build a vibrant ecosystem infrastructure and that it could be successful. And then this will allow us to expand in a part of the continent. Our projection, actually, the vision of our founder, is within five years we expand in, for instance, Kenya. Kenya, Benin, Ivory Coast, Côte d’Ivoire. Other places, because if you look around, we are landlocked, small population. Business-wise will not make any sense. But building a business concept-wise, it makes a lot of sense because you have all these elements that makes your life easier and to try whatever you dream of.
What I take from the government in general is like, hey, if you can dream it and it betters our country and our population, come and try it here. For one of the things for Zaria as well, because what we’re showing is that within the sports sector or industry, that there’s other opportunities where young people can take advantage of. And also it would address some of the pressure to migrate to other places, right? If we’re able to create jobs and reason for people to stay, why would somebody take a risk catching a raft to go somewhere else? All those things has to be put in that kind of context. So as businesses venture in this area, you have to look at it, at the legacy, what kind of impact you’re leaving behind. Immediately, you’re not getting your return on a buck, basically, you have to look at it in the long term. And then what kind of impact you’re leaving, legacy, what kind of legacy you’re building. So proof of concept is perfect here. If Zara succeed, which I think will succeed in my opinion, is that this could be duplicated to other parts of the continent because you still have all the elements that you need: entrepreneurs, creatives, sports lover. Right? All those segments. Also you tap into the element of tourism as well. So aside from building businesses locally, you’re actually attracting at the venue revenue streams as well. If you come– next time you come back, I need to see you at Zaria Hotel.
Ron: Yes. I mean, so much to talk about, there’s so much interesting stuff. We should mention maybe, for the listeners, that Zaria Court just opened up a couple months ago this summer.
Che: Yes.
Ron: And so you’re saying, like, proof of concept. Two years down the road, five years down the road, how will you know that you have proof of concept? How will you know it has succeeded? What are the things you’re hoping for or looking for a couple years down the road?
Che: Right. I believe it’s like, if we become Zaria Court, it becomes the model of how to build this ecosystem across the continent, that’s, like, the top, right? To become the benchmark, how to do things. I think that’s going to be super exciting. To our vision, having five Zaria Court within five years, like, by 2030, we should have some in different parts of the continent. That would be proof enough to me that the concept worked. But looking on the local level, as just looking at how many from events entrepreneurs have gone through, or our community that have created businesses, that will be one of the measuring. And personally– living here, seeing successful business coming through, or an athlete that has played basketball at the Zaria Court, now, maybe playing a BK Arena or BAL, or an artist performing at Zaria Court as a startup and then ended up performing at a bigger stage. So if it can be the steppingstone towards your bigger dream, it’s OK. I think it’s fine. Seeing the success story of one, one individual, one star goes through our community and becomes great. I mean, that would be so amazing to me. It sounds dreamy, but in these kinds of businesses and these things you have to actually dare to dream the impossible. One of the things that we look at Zaria Court is because it’s one of its kind, its first. There’s lots of learning that we’re going through. If we’re able to also pivot whenever necessary from the learning, so constantly gathering data from interacting with people, metric the measurement that we will use to measure success. And at times– I think you might ask this later — the only currency is not just money as a measure of success. That’s why I was mentioning having a couple of young people who have gone through our ecosystem, either through art, basketball, or getting a job in our ecosystem. I think those things are amazing.
Ron: Fantastic.
Ben: Yes, amazing. So many questions. I’ll follow up on this one just a little bit. This idea of not just money as success is so interesting to me, because when we think about investment, development, entrepreneurship, in general, we think success is making money and your vision is so much bigger. It’s so much more about participating in both the development of Rwanda, but also the rebuilding of the nation. Also thinking about exporting ideas across Africa. I guess I’m curious to even think about, for example, Masai Ujiri, who’s involved in the project, and other investors, like, is this something you actively talk about? Do you think that the people who are getting involved are having this conversation the way you are? They’re saying, yes, in this moment, success doesn’t have to be measured in money – is this a hopeful thing or is this really built into the project itself?
Che: So yes, because it’s true. In the long run, we do have to make money in order to survive as a business. And that’s just the way it is. You need to generate to survive. But at times, you have to look at the long term. If today you ask our founder or our business partner and say, hey, do you expect to get a return by next week? They’ll be like, no, that’s not the point. Because what the team and everybody is participating is a long-term vision. What kind of– I keep saying legacy, I keep saying all those things because it does matter. Because when I look at the history of Rwanda, where we are now, where we were 31 years ago, it’s completely different. And it took a way of envisioning down the road when the cards were stacked against the nation. I think it’s the same way that when people come here, they get that feeling that everybody is driven with the same kind of oomph towards the greater good of society. Even though, yes, we do need to make revenue and money soon enough to survive, but for the greater good of the community and society, there’s things that have to be measured as well. For Zaria, yes, but even I myself joining it, believe that it will make money. It’s a matter of time. It won’t be today or tomorrow. But I guarantee you, five years from now, you’ll be like, wow. But I like the question that you raised because part of nation building or business building, all you guys have been teaching, entrepreneurship, et cetera, people have to dare, you have to dream. And you have to actually try things people never tried before. Because if you use the normal model, you can never change anything, and you can never innovate. I think for– hopefully Masai and everybody forgive me if I put words in your mouth, because the way I look at it and the way I think I have gathered the culture of what I stand for is that we’re pushing the envelope. These are unknown, but we believe in the concept so much that this could be successful. It’s a dash of madness that you need to have as well to believe that. But at the same time, part of innovation, part of building, you do need that kind of dreamy or naive way of looking at things, I think.
Ron: I love it. One of the things that I find so fascinating about Zaria Court is questions of scale. For our listeners, to give you a sense, there’s a brand-new basketball arena, seats I think 22,000 something?
Che: No, the basketball arena sits 10,000.
Ron: Oh, 10,000.
Che: Yes.
Ron: OK.
Che: And then the football stadium has been renovated. It sits 45,000.
Ron: 45,000?
Che: Yes.
Ron: OK. But then in addition to that you have the Petit Stade, which is a smaller stadium.
Che: Yes.
Ron: You have a basketball court with an outdoor arena sort of space around it. You have five-a-side soccer pitches, football pitches. And then you have a retail area that’s actually built out of shipping containers.
Che: Yes, yes.
Ron: Can you say a little bit about how Zaria Court has approached these questions of scale? Because the other developments I’m aware of in the States, you might have development around a stadium, but it’s a huge stadium and there’s nothing else. So why the Petit Stade? Why the retail and the shipping containers? How does that all work in terms of scale?
Che: Well, very good question. I think for Zaria Court, when you look at the part of the division, that’s part of Sports City. We are part of Sports City. We have the Zaria Court, we have the Petit Stade, small stadium, we have the big stadium, and then we have the basketball and arena or multi-purpose space as well for concerts et cetera. And then what’s been built also, there’s track and fields. By a couple of years from now, all that area that you came in the meadow area, it will be part of Sports City. The theme will be everything inclusive. For the Zaria aspect of it, when you look at the shipping container, those are– how do you– looking at sustainability as well. We had a chance to walk around. When the hotel, the Zaria Hotel now, used to be an old building that had a strong history within the history of Rwanda and then being repurposed to make it back to what it was before as a hotel, it’s part of sustainability as well. Using shipping containers, I mean, those are ways of not only cutting down costs and construction, also how do we take something that is, quote unquote, “not useful anymore”, make it useful again. So having a combination of all those things, I think it shows the vision of what we try to build here in Rwanda. How do we take spaces that are underused and make them useful, even at optimum level, and then build and also support a neighborhood by bringing traffic and businesses in that area? I don’t know how many years you’ve been here before the area, before the stadium or just the stadium, and then the arena came. And adding Zaria just connects all those things together. Basically, how do we take anything that is, quote unquote, “old or broken”, and make it cool again? That’s the mission that we are on.
Ron: Yes, I think part of what that does is it makes it feel much more sort of human-sized, right?
Che: Right.
Ron: As opposed to if it was just Amahoro Stadium, the huge football stadium, it sort of looms over the city on a hill. But then when you have the Petit Stade, so that if you have an event and you’re not going to fill 10,000-seater BK, you can fill a much smaller stadium and still have that vibe, that energy. Or you can just have people outside at the E-sports event, on Sunday was at the basketball court, and it was the perfect size for that kind of event. So it just makes it much more human-scaled, which is interesting.
Che: It also allows the entrepreneurship or building that sports and entertainment segment, because not all the promoters or sports lover can fill in 10,000 right away. You might start with 200 and then build. The way I dream it, when I look at it, I’m always like, ok, if you come and have a concert at Zaria Court, ok, you have a couple hundred people up to a couple thousand, and then you actually– steps away from the Amahoro Stadium of 45,000 or the arena with 10,000. The way I look at it as well is almost like, I want you to dream the potential of it. This is a starting point that you’re building but look where you can go. It goes back to the question that you raised before about the mission of what we try to get is like, ok, you play basketball here, or play at the five-a-side, or had a concert, or painted something at Zaria. Now you’re an international renowned artist who’s– right? I would love to hear that, hey, you know what? I started with Zaria Court, there was this guy with dreadlocks who helped me. I want to get that credit, but that’s beside the point. But just to create not only storytelling, also to show that it’s possible for people to build. I also want people to come and say, hey, I felt this way when I came to Zaria, and I want to take this with me somewhere else and replicate that or copy or duplicate that. I want that person who comes through Zaria to become the ambassador. And I’m hoping for both of you, when you go back to Seattle, you’d be like, hey man, have you been to Kigali? Those are the things we try to create, so we want to create those kinds of spaces where people feel that they belong, for one, they can dream, and we can create a business and show the business side of it, that these concepts do work. Where you can make impact, then also make money. How you measure it then becomes another question. But you’re able to– you can do both.
Ben: Amazing, amazing. I wanted to zoom out a little bit from Zaria Court. We’ve been here for a few weeks, one of the things our students are studying is just sports in general as it relates to Rwanda. I mean, it’s such an amazing story, there’s all of this activity geared toward building a sports culture inside Rwanda. And then there’s all of this sort of activity built to connect to larger international events. So, for example, in two weeks’ time, there’s a international bike race. And when Ron and I were here last summer, there was a professional tennis tournament, and there’s talk of bringing F1. As it pertains to the success of the stadiums or– What’s that– What does that look like in terms of these different audiences you’re speaking to? How do you both make Rwandans feel connected to sports, whether that be them playing it or teams? And what’s the role of hosting international events? Or what’s the role of advertising Rwanda on international stages, like the Visit Rwanda sponsor campaign on several soccer clubs? Like, how do those things work together in your opinion?
Che: They do work together for one. Like I mentioned before, sports have so many elements that one can learn. I am a basketball lover, actually, avid. Then within the sports, any sports, you learn so many things, like I was mentioning before, collaboration, teamwork, things that can actually translate to even the boardroom. And how to communicate, all those things. The way I look at how the country is pushing that part is also pushing for physical activity in general. Like, here, every last Sunday of the month there is car-free day. A couple times a month, there’s a car-free day where people– streets are closed, people are running, exercising, biking. Aside from the health aspect of it, there’s also the opportunity to create business and employment. For one, having people get involved in activities for their own well-being and learning, all this cool stuff that people learn through sports, and also showing, hey, you know there is all this big sector that’s worth billions that actually even have African athletes playing internationally? This could be done here as well. The way I look at it, I think it’s interconnected. For one, people do love sports in Rwanda and on the continent in general. And then, previously, there was not a lot of playgrounds or fields or basketball courts available for– if you love basketball, you probably had one or two courts available throughout the whole Kigali or maybe one outside Kigali. But now you have availability of basketball courts. And then this, I’m speaking of basketball.
Ben: Yes, you are.
Che: But what does it actually even build the sports aspect of it, and then people have a chance to practice and get better at it. Aside from the other opportunity of learning how to collaborate, I think it’s also better for the sport. And if you zoom out more, there’s different opportunities to become coaches, to be physiotherapist. There are so many things attached to that industry that if you don’t know, won’t know. Having that kind of exposure, even showing Visit Rwanda or bringing tourism, et cetera, everything I think is connected. Now a parent, I think– I’m a dad as well, so I have young ones– if they showed up to me and said, hey, dad, I want to do sports, this, I won’t jump and say, no, no, no, that’s not right, I will be encouraging it because I’ve been exposed to the opportunity that’s out there. Having those things coming together I think is part of exposure, it’s part of making the community and the country aware that there’s these opportunities that are out there that young people have a chance to tap into. I don’t know, did I answer that correctly?
Ben: Yes, yes.
Ron: Yes.
Che: I think that’s great.
Ron: Great. No, it’s fantastic. And I want to explore that idea of the connection between sports and tourism specifically, and the Visit Rwanda campaign. I wonder if you can say a little more about how you see those fitting together. Not just in terms of tourists coming for sporting events, but how it operates within the country. One of the things we’ve been struck with is the Visit Rwanda campaign has become very visible because of especially the major football clubs that it appears on. And from outside Rwanda, it’s easy to think of it as a campaign for outsiders. Part of what we’ve been struck with since we’ve been here is that it seems like it’s also actually a campaign for Rwandans to think about tourism. And I wonder if you can just say a little bit more about how that fits together with the sports industry and the work you’re doing.
Che: Well, I think– this one I’ll answer on a personal level because I look at tourism or Visit Rwanda, it also taps into, if somebody come visit your house, it’s for us, culturally, African in general, it’s a great honor to get invited to somebody’s house, right? So having people know that, hey, there is a campaign to Visit Rwanda, and then there’s people coming to visit you, there’s a particular pride that comes with that as well. That’s the way [INAUDIBLE] is. When somebody has a pride of where they live, where they are, the opportunity of staying and then being part of that building process becomes higher. When you connect that to the other aspect of sports or tourism in general, then it shows there’s plenty of opportunities in those segments, those sectors. Because I do recall years back– I have friends who used to be tour guides, later on, they had opened up businesses and built their businesses, employed hundreds of staff now. When they started is one of those things where people used to think, what? You do what? You walk–right? People show up and you just show them around, and you hike. But once people discover that there is a business behind it, there’s a business opportunity there, and you also can build communities around it. If you see how the impact of not only tourism dollar, there’s a lot of things that get built from hospitals, schools, roads, all those things. There’s so many things that actually can change a whole society environment. And the reason why I even say that is because I look at what this was not too long ago. Because 31 years, I mean, for the young ones who listen to us, it sounds like very far away. For us, old cats with gray hair–.
Ron: it’s not so far away.
Che: Not so far away. It feels like, man I was, like– you know, it was yesterday, right? In the long run, I think connecting all those things together, it just shows that from tourism, from our sports, for even marketing Rwanda, gives a particular pride and joy that people want to stay part of, want to be part of the building process as well. So that’s what I wanted to say, this is my personal opinion on that one. Yeah, I don’t know what to add.
Ron: No, it’s fantastic. And part of it is that it stands in such contrast to what we’re seeing in many parts of the world right now where it’s a don’t come and visit us. I mean, we’re coming from the States, and we certainly see a strong sense of don’t come and visit us from some sectors of society. But then also places like, I’m thinking of Barcelona, where there’s a very strong anti-tourist movement. It’s interesting to hear that difference, yeah.
Ben: I have a question–yeah, it’s very true, right?
Che: Yeah, It’s true.
Ben: This is a more personal question.
Che: Shoot.
Ben: We’ve been struck by a lot of things, this been an amazing visit –that there are a lot of Rwandans like you, who grew up outside of Rwanda and have come back to Rwanda to be part of it.
Che: Right.
Ben: And I’m just curious if you could talk about that experience, why– I think you grew up in Toronto?
Che: Right, Ottawa and Toronto.
Ben: Ottawa and Toronto.
Che: Canada.
Ben: Canada.
Che: Canada number one.
Ben: You shared a bit about your story and we’ve met all these amazing people who shared their story, but we’re meeting lots of people who either were born in Rwanda and left, grew up, or maybe were born outside Rwanda. Many are coming back to be part of what’s happening. Just talk about what it why you did that, what it feels like, why it seems that there’s a growing number of Rwandans from the diaspora coming back to be part of what’s happening in Rwanda.
Che: Well, sometimes when I think about it, at times I think I was crazy, actually but I think it was cool. But I was born outside of Rwanda because of the history of Rwanda, actually. My parents were in exile, refugees, and my first citizenship was a Canadian citizenship. And then later on, tap into my community in Canada and just getting connected to other communities, and then when they say back home, you’re like, well, is it back home? Back home would be like Ottawa or something.
Ben: Yes.
Che: But slowly you start discovering about community, and country, and the journey that the country has gone through. One of the things I always recollect is I was lucky enough to live with my great-grandmother. My great-grandmother used to tell stories all the time about this land of 1,000 hills. My first visit on a continent was after the genocide, a few years after the genocide. In my head, what I knew politically and the story of my great-grandmother collided. All of a sudden, you’re looking at a nation that’s rebuilding and going through its own changes and struggles, et cetera. And there’s also this story of my great-grandma telling me about Rwanda, these 1,000 hills right? I’m looking at the reality of it and the dream of what she used to talk about. The interesting thing, even during that moment, the chaos, whatever, the chaos coming from Canada, everything looked look chaotic because there was lights, roads were a bit shaky. I felt a particular energy. I felt people were committed to try to solve their problem. It was the strangest thing. I always remember that feeling and I don’t know, I didn’t tell you, my best friend that we used to have a business with, he was an African Canadian. Same – born in Jamaica, migrated to Canada. We came together, it was his first trip on a continent. It was a big deal for him. From now he’s like Jamaican, Canada, Rwanda. The Rwanda he came in, it wasn’t the Africa that he imagined as well, but he felt the same energy as myself. He felt like people wanted to build something, work together. And he mentioned the same thing as me. He’s like, yeah, you know what, it would be nice to– how do we contribute, how do we participate to this journey? Going back to Toronto and continue life as usual, I used to periodically come in and out, two weeks here, two weeks there, and one day I wanted to take some time off. I was blessed enough and lucky enough that I was able to do that. I came for six months. It’s been 12 years.
So in the six months– But the journey has been also a journey of learning, we started a business, closed businesses, been an entrepreneur. Now I work for corporations, but the ones that I work for have always been interesting. I’ve been involved with Norrsken, the hub, and being at Zaria. I was lucky enough to be involved with things that I loved that pushed the envelope, innovation, et cetera. Going back to your question, what people always want to come back is connected to, for one, in my personal experience, connecting to the roots. Connecting to that energy of rebuilding, and the proof of concept again. People are seeing you were here a year ago, two years ago, when you come back, you discover that, wow, I remember people talking about this, and then all of a sudden it’s in front of you.
Ron: Zaria Court was not– it was past the dream stage, but it was still a concept when we were here last, and now there it is.
Che: And when you showed up, you were like, I can’t believe this is done, right? That’s why– I think that’s why you get a lot of people, not only of Rwandan origin, in general, but every African or every human being who wants to be part of change and building a better society. I think that’s the way I understand this feeling is like– even you guys coming back and forth, there’s a particular sense that you have that you’d be like, it’s weird, I don’t get it, but I get it. That’s the feeling that I had, I didn’t get it, but I also got it. I understood that there’s a part of nation building, there’s an opportunity to make an impact, and I keep saying, the legacy aspect of it, I guess that’s the way I felt. What kind of environment would I leave behind for the next generation? When I moved back, I was not a dad. Now, it’s actually more important for me to make sure that any generation that’s behind us or that once we’re no longer here, that we leave them with something great and amazing, that we did our part to make the environment better. That’s the way I see it. And I remember when we started, I was saying sometimes it’s a bit naive and dreamy, but I like it, I like to dream of crazy things.
Ron: I think that’s going to stick with me for a while, that the conflict between your great– was it your great-grandmother?
Che: My great-grandmother, yes.
Ron: Your great-grandmother’s memories, vision, tales that were passed down to you, and then it rubs up against what you’re hearing in the news, the political stories you’re hearing, and that sort of disjuncture is such an interesting one. I wonder– And this might be an unfair question, so if it is, just say, but did sports play any role either in– you were talking about starting to connect with the African diaspora community in Canada, or then once you came to Rwanda, connecting with folks in Rwanda. Was sports a part of that story, or was it separate from that?
Che: No, no, definitely. Growing up in Canada as well, because when I went to Canada, I was about 10 years old. I was born in Burundi. So tweener, preteen, tough times, and at that time it was a bit lanky growing. Basketball was the greatest connector for me and even playing sports because I got to make new friends, learn a language—at that time I spoke more French– so learn a language, interact with people. Sports has been one of those connector that I’ve lived and seen actually live happening. My brother used to be– used to play hockey, he was into the hockey. My sister was into sports as well. Everybody was doing some sports as a way of connecting to other kids. Interesting enough, when I moved back to Rwanda, the first community I was invited in was a basketball team of all the guys who used to love basketball, so I was invited to that one. But a good friend of mine, he used to live in Canada as well. He’s like, yeah, I know you’re a hooper, you love basketball, we have Tuesdays and Thursdays, we play basketball from six to eight. I was there, and then next thing you know, I start meeting other people in different sectors, and it was part of the integration aspect of it, and you learn so many things. You learn– at times, what people don’t realize is that sports also teach you culture of that environment, how people interact, how language is used. There’s so many things that you don’t realize until when you leave and then you’re outside of it, you realize you’re like, man, I learned that people like interacting this way, or what’s the coolest bar to go to. You get all these mini info through that competition moment, and also in the competition you get a chance to connect with people. It’s always been very central. I pushed my younger boys to play sports, even if they want, whenever they don’t want to go play, I’m ok. But because I know through interaction they will learn so much more than just kicking a ball or shooting a hoop.
Ron: That’s such a fantastic point that I think people often don’t talk about is, especially if you’re traveling across cultural contexts, the way sport can open up, not just build connections, but also help you see how people interact, how people relate. That’s a fantastic point. Yeah.
Ben: Yeah. Just on that point, so we have this program in Rwanda right now where we have 17 students from the University of Washington, 17 students from the African Leadership University. They’ve been together the whole time. It’s been great, we’ve been doing icebreakers. We started the whole program with this or that debate, and of course, we started with Kendrick or Drake.
Che: Who, careful.
Ben: I mean, it wasn’t controversial.
Che: We’re going to end this podcast right now.
Ben: I’ll just tell you it wasn’t controversial, unless you want to weigh in right now. There have been all kinds of bonding and it’s been really amazing. But to be honest, until they played five-a-side at Zaria Court, there were definitely some still– that opened things up to another level. Our group definitely experienced that exact thing. Well, maybe as we start to wrap up, Che, I’m curious, could you just share some moments for you? What are some surprising moments, whether in a stadium, at an event, at Zaria, a conversation, what are some of the things that have surprised you about being in this space, or being around sports or being around just Rwanda in general or some of the surprising things that have struck you?
Che: It’s not more surprising, it’s actually surprise it could be used. Because at times when you have a space like Zaria, you don’t realize that the space is– people want spaces like that. When we opened, one of my biggest fear has always been nobody’s going to show up. Maybe the first day, a couple hundred shows up, and you’re looking at a space that can host 2000, it looks very empty. Very daunting when you’re looking at it, you’re, like, scratching your head. And then some of the conversations that you have with people coming play basketball or just standing by the sports bar where we were, they’re like, yeah, man, this is so cool, this is so great, me hanging out here. The greatest conversation that I had was this gentleman that was sitting in the park area of the Zaria Court. Let me plug-in, if you come to the area, there’s different areas you can sit with benches in the greenery space. I was sitting there and this gentleman comes by, he’s looking at me, he wants to say something. He doesn’t know what to say. At times, people assume that I don’t speak Kinyarwanda, I don’t know why. But he slowly approached me and he’s like, yeah, man, excuse me, what’s your name? I’m like, my name is Che. And he’s like, I can’t remember, what’s his other name? Emmanuels? It was a random name. And he goes, you know, whenever I come here– And that day was very quiet, actually, I was looking at him, trying to figure out what kind of event do we need to throw to make this place happening. Of course, we have KPIs [Key Performance Indicators] and things that we need to look at. And he goes, every day that I’m stressed, I usually walk here. He just brought it back. Remember when we talked about dollars and cents before? Because I was thinking, how do we make people coming in, spend and consume? When he said that, it almost brought it back. He’s like, man, imagine this human being is feeling something here in this space that was created and is feeling satisfied, and connected, and recentered before he goes to face to the world again. That was very satisfying. And that’s when I realized, I’m like, man, these spaces are from basketball to five-a-side to the sports area, to the open spaces can host so many different experiences. And that was not only surprising, very satisfying as the community manager of the space. Also as a human being in general that somebody could feel this about space.
Ben: Great.
Che: It’s not a sports one, but I think it’s part of that– part of when we create spaces and when we create environment, you never know who walks in there. And then the most important that we have to look at is to stay human-centric in a way. That spaces— here’s a question: is it just a building? No, people make it more than a building. The kind of connection they feel, the kind of interaction that they have. In a nutshell, the biggest dream is to say somebody came through Zaria, they felt seen, they connected and they left with an amazing feel and a feeling of possibility. As the– let me claim my title, the brand manager of the space, those things can– if I can bottle those feelings, I can– whenever you feel depressed, I can fling that. That would be so satisfying. Yeah.
Ben: That’s great. I love that.
Ron: Amazing, that’s beautiful. Thank you so much. This has been a fantastic conversation. Any last burning comments or words that you want to share before we sign off?
Che: Well, aside from inviting everybody to come visit Zaria, please, I think everyone, wherever they are, we all have an opportunity to create spaces and communities. And communities that build instead of destroy. And I’m very hopeful when we have spaces that we have here in Rwanda, and showing what we can do, that someone who comes to visit, feels that and goes to their community and says, hey, I’ve seen this place in the middle of Africa. They’re trying all these things, and I think we can do it here as well. If we’re able to inspire someone, to make the environment better, like I was saying, what kind of legacy are we leaving behind as human beings for the future generations is very important. If somebody can come to Rwanda and feel inspired and feel all the things that I’m feeling right now as I speak about it, please make a visit, judge for yourself, and make sure you stay at Zaria Hotel. That’s it.
Ron: Beautiful. I will say it’s an absolutely stunning ecosystem that you’ve built. It really is an incredible place to just find yourself in and spend some time and relax, and there’s a lot of different spaces and experiences within it, which makes it really vibrant and exciting.
Che: Exactly.
Ron: And wonderful. So thank you so much for the conversation. Really appreciate it, r eally appreciate you braving tonight’s traffic. It was not easy for us to get here, I appreciate you. I just really appreciate all the work you’re doing. Thank you.
Che: Thank you for the invitation as well, and trust me to be part of your sixth guest.
Ron: Sixth guest, you are the sixth guest, yes.
Che: This is going to be my new lucky number, number six.
Ron: There you go. Yeah, there you go. And thank you as well, Ben, for joining us.
Ben: My pleasure.
Ron: I really appreciate it. So just to let folks know, the Global Sport Lab is a new collaboration based in the Jackson School of International Studies at the University of Washington, Seattle. The Lab uses the lens of sport to explore the big issues of our global world, everything from migration to politics and equity, racism, gender discrimination to popular culture, democracy, human rights, and the economy. We’re particularly focused on the sport of football, better known as soccer in the United States during the run up to Seattle’s hosting of the FIFA Men’s World Cup in 2026, but we are interested in a very wide range of sports, and sports as an industry as well. Both well-known sports, lesser well-known sports, from the grassroots to the professional levels. And really, how they may help us make meaning of the world. Special thanks to musician and scholar of Global Football, Laurent Dubois. And Woti Production for the use of our theme music, “Merci Kylian”, which is available on Spotify and Apple Music. If you’d like to join more conversations like this, please reach out to us at globalsportlab@uw.edu. We look forward to hearing from you. Thanks and keep playing.
[MUSIC PLAYING – “Merci Kylian” by Laurent Dubois]
