[MUSIC PLAYING – “Merci Kylian” by Laurent Dubois]
Ron Krabill: Hello, and welcome to the fourth episode of the podcast of the Global Sport Lab. I’m Ron Krabill and I’m your host, as well as the director of the Global Sport Lab and a professor in the School of Interdisciplinary Arts and Sciences at the University of Washington Bothell. The Global Sport Lab is a new collaboration based in the Jackson School of International Studies at the University of Washington, Seattle. The Lab uses the lens of sport to explore the big issues of our global world, including migration, politics, inequity, racism, misogyny, human rights, popular culture, democracy, and the economy, to name just a few.
We are particularly focused on the sport of football, better known as soccer in the United States, during the run up to Seattle’s hosting of the FIFA Men’s World Cup in 2026. But we are also interested in a wide range of sports, well known and less well known, from the grassroots to the professional levels, and how they help us make meaning of the world. We would love for you to connect with us at the Global Sport Lab. You can find us on the web or at globalsportlab@uw.edu. Special thanks to musician and scholar of global football Laurent Dubois, and Woti Production for the use of our theme music, “Merci Kylian,” available on Spotify and Apple Music.
This episode revolves around the upcoming visit of Paris Saint-Germain, PSG Football Club, to Seattle to face the Seattle Sounders in their final group match of the Club World Cup. PSG comes into this tournament having just won the UEFA Champions League and considered by many to be the best football club in the world at the moment, playing with a style and flair that is widely admired.
They also represent one of the most talked about examples of Middle Eastern governments investments in world football. Here to help us to understand more about PSG and what they have come to mean culturally and politically, both within and beyond France are Dr. Stéphane Mourlane — professor of contemporary history and sport at Aix-Marseille University, where he has done extensive research on the Olympic movement as well as football and sport more generally. Stéphane is both a scholar and a supporter of PSG, and he is joining us today from Marseille on the Southern French Coast. Welcome, Stéphane.
Stéphane Mourlane: Welcome, Ron. Thanks a lot for inviting me, and thanks to David to organize this discussion. I’m very pleased to participate in this discussion, even online. I would of course, have preferred to be with you in Seattle or in California, which would also have allowed me to attend the World Cup matches; even I’m not sure that the sporting event will be very interesting, but that’s another matter anyway.
Ron: Indeed, though, we’re very sorry that you can’t join us here in Seattle on Monday, it would be fun to host you in person.
Stéphane: Maybe next time.
Ron: Yes, perhaps in the future. We are also joined by Dr. David Do Paço, who is the French attaché for academic cooperation in San Francisco, where he represents the Villa Albertine, the cultural services of the embassy of France in the US. He’s also a scholar, a historical anthropologist, and the former chair of East Central European Studies at Columbia University. He joins us from San Francisco today. And notably, he is also a supporter of PSG’s arch rivals, Olympique de Marseille. Welcome, David.
David Do Paço: Thank you. Thank you Ron for having us today. I’m sorry for supporting Marseille — when something starts in your childhood, it’s very difficult to get rid of it.
Stéphane: David was in Marseille a few days ago, and he was so happy to be in this town with his favorite club.
Ron: Yes.
David: I mean, every time, every time this is a crazy moment. And you should all go to Marseille and visit this wonderful city and go to the stadium, the Velodrome, the most beautiful in France.
Ron: It is a beautiful stadium, that’s absolutely true. And I will say one of our themes of the Global Sport Lab is that supporters of all teams are welcome. We’re an open, broad tent, as it were. So David, do want to get us started with our question?
David: Yeah. I mean talking about that from — and this is very specific situation — you are a big supporter and being a professor in Marseille, you are at the right place to perhaps tell us a bit more about how PSG is understood today and what this team or club represents within France.
Stéphane: Yeah, thank you, David. First of all, we can underline that when it comes to football, soccer in Europe, Paris remains both an exception and a paradox. Unlike other capitals, such as Athens, Belgrade, Brussels, Lisbon, London, Madrid, Rome also, or metropolises such as Barcelona, Liverpool, Manchester, Milano, or Torino in Italy, the French capital has just one top flight club, Paris Saint-Germain — known as PSG. I pronounce it with a French accent, PSG with an English accent. So there was indeed another Parisian club in the first division in the 80s as David knows, and there will be another one next season. And also both clubs are owned by prominent French businessmen. They lack the financial resources and sporting success of PSG, which remains the dominant club. This was the case, I have to say that even before the arrival of Qatar investor. To understand what PSG represents within France, it’s worth looking back briefly at the history of this club.
You say that I am an historian, so I have to say that one of the great players of the Qatari era, Sweden’s Zlatan Ibrahimovic, said that PAG — PSG, sorry, not PAG, it’s very different — had no history before Qatar. That is obviously untrue, even if PSG is one of the most recent professional clubs in France and Europe; but it’s also one of the most successful full club in France with 52 major trophies won. PSG has the most decorated club in France. I won’t talk about all the trophies of PSG. I would like to remind that PSG was founded through the merger of two clubs, Paris Football Club and Stade Saint-Germain — that’s why the club is called Paris Saint-Germain. The training center has long been located in the town of Saint-Germain-en-Laye about 20 kilometers west of Paris, David, I think. And for its part the stadium, you talked about Velodrome in Paris. The stadium is Parc des Princes.
This merger was driven by a desire to establish a major football presence in the French capital, which lacked an elite club at the time. The project was uniquely co-funded by 20,000 supporters, making PSG the first French club to be financially backed by its fans, and its inception somewhat along the lines of the social socialist models used by Barcelona Football Club. But this management experience was short.
Paris Saint-Germain really took flight with the arrival of fashion designer, Daniel Hechter as a chairman of the management committee in 1973. And this is very important because it was a defining moment in the club’s identity and image. As I said, Daniel Hechter is a French-Belgian fashion designer who is sometimes referred to as the inventor of ready-to-wear, pret-à-porter, as we say in French. And besides offering his financial support to the club, Hechter also designed the team’s classic outfit, a blue shirt with a red vertical stripe flanked by two thinner white stripes. And Hetcher had already been pursuing a policy of recruiting famous, personality famous player long before the Qataris, appointing, for example, French legend Just Fontaine as sporting director. Fontaine was well known as a striker of the most famous French club in the 50s, the Stade de France, and took part in the team that got to the 58, 59 European Cup final against Real Madrid. He also made his mark on the soccer history, because he scored the most goals ever in a single edition of the FIFA World Cup, with 13 in six matches in 1958 tournament. Hetcher attracted many famous players and we can quote about Mustafa Dahleb, Argentine Carlos Bianchi, and so on. Also the iconic French player Dominique Rocheteau, very important.
So there is a kind of, how can I say? DNA there in PSG. And the stars were also in the stands. Once again, well ahead of the Qataris. The Parc des Princes was the place to be for the movies or music stuff. And this reputation as a star-studded club in the spotlight was reinforced when the club became the property of a private television channel in 1991. This channel called Canal+, its programming is mostly encrypted. It’s something like HBO, maybe, in the USA. And this channel broadcast the championship matches live for the first time in France. And it’s easy to understand why this channel would want to invest in soccer in order to have a good commercial product. And this television channel quickly became very, very trendy, but maybe David could also talk about that. But this channel was also very powerful. And PSG was then part of a commercial and entertainment strategy. And it was, David, in this context that the rivalry with the Marseille, Club Olympique de Marseille was developed, but maybe we can talk about that later.
I would like to underline that PSG is therefore precise in France as a club for the rich. Bling bling, if I may say so. It’s seen as far removed from the supposed values of French soccer. PSG is seen as a club whose identity isn’t rooted in its local area and isn’t connected to the working class. You know, there is a very strong idea that soccer is a people game, people’s games — International Federation of Association Football had even made into a slogan. So to understand what PSG represents within France, it should also be remembered that this is a club of the France’s capital city. And in France, the relationship with the capital is a bit special.
Unlike many countries, the relationship between the capital and the provinces is marked by a strong centralization and polarity in every aspect, politically, economically, demographically, and even literary. This is the result, and David knows that very well of French history. First of all, the action of the monarchy and then the direction taken by the French Revolution, which is often referred to the Jacobinism. There is a kind of fascination with Paris in this situation but also mistrust and even rejection. And I think that the Paris soccer club, PSG, evokes the same kind of ambivalent feeling. I don’t know what you think about that, David.
David: Yeah, yeah. I think this is interesting because we can also see that at the scale of the city, or at least at the scale of the urban area, the localization of the stadium, which is for Paris, something like what Chelsea would be in London, on the western part, the richest part of the city. The political re-appropriation of the club and of the victory by former French presidents, for example, who wear the jersey and also gives this color to the PSG as something quite political at some points. And the lack of unanimity of the PSG within the Parisian area where we had historical clubs, I mean, like the Red Star from the radical left, for example. And I never explained myself why Paris was not able to have several club playing at the European level within the city.
OK, the city of Paris is quite small, but the urban area is quite rich, and most of the best French players are actually coming from Ile de France. And you can even see that at the World Cup, because many people who were educated in France, trained in France, grew up in France, could play with different team evolving at the World Cup and the Ile de France is usually — so the Ile de France is a district around Paris that is usually very, very, very well represented, so it’s very hard to understand this domination. And at the same point, as you say, Paris Saint-Germain is Paris and Saint-Germain-en-Laye. So this is a Parisian club. But this also represents something in the French demography of the wealthiest part of this area.
Stéphane: Maybe one key point to answer to this question. It’s very interesting question, but it’s very difficult to answer it. But maybe we can say that in Paris, in fact, there are not many Parisians, but many people who live in Paris come from provinces. And they are still with a powerful link with their origin, their provinces origin.
David: And the power of the Parisian narrative is exactly what you describe. It comes fashion and goes throughout finance. And this is also the way Paris wants to position itself in the world.
Ron: Yeah, part of what I find so fascinating about this conversation is the ways in which, oftentimes, people want to talk about sports and sporting terms separate from other forms of cultural production and status and wealth in other ways, and I think that telling this history is such a good way of connecting that sense of glamor. I do a lot of work in South Africa and they talk about the two glamor clubs, right? And this whole idea that some clubs are associated with glamor, others are associated with the working class in a different way. And you see that replicated in lots of leagues around the world. So I think that’s a super interesting way of thinking through popular culture, high fashion, high culture, and its intersections with sport as well. Thank you so much, Stéphane, for that deeper history. I think for many of us who follow world football, PSG doesn’t really hit the radar screen until the Qataris do buy the club and start investing the kind of money that they invest in it. Can you tell us a little more about what changed with that investment, and how Qatar used that as an instrument of soft power?
Stéphane: Yes. In terms of the club’s representative image in France, not much has changed. PSG is still seen as a club of the rich people. This is certainly true when you consider that QSI, Qatar Sports Investment, has spent around €2 billion since 2011 on recruiting star player among the best of the world — Ibrahimovic, Beckham, Neymar, Messi, Mbappe — with astronomical salaries. On top of that, there is the construction of a new training center and all the marketing. But despite all that money, they had to wait almost 15 years to win the ultimate goal: the European Champions League. But all this money had made PSG the dominant club in France as a team that has won 11 French championships title. This means that only three other clubs have been champions during this period, it was Lille, Montpellier, and Monaco, because Monaco is in France — in football only. And this dominance arouses the usual feelings of jealousy toward those in power.
There will also be a kind of sense of injustice and unfairness towards a club owned by a very wealthy state. There is a perception that competition is not on a level playing field. In terms of patriotism, PSG is the club which represents the interest of foreigners. However, the presence of foreigners in France is traditionally perceived as a threat to the country. This is obviously true in time of war and occupation by a foreign army, but it’s also true in people’s minds in times of peace. In this way, immigrants are often seen as invaders, threatening a national identity. Moreover, the Arab and Muslim identity of PSG’s owner also maybe play a role in the mistrust in the context of racism within French society, this is an hypothesis that deserves further investigation.
What is certain is that the takeover of PSG by investors representing a foreign state is causing the same concern, and sometimes outrage, as when a large French company comes under foreign control. It’s about lost national heritage, and a kind of symbol of declining power. However, David knows that very well. The French people remain convinced that their country is a major power, which is clearly no longer the case. As you know, the sport is a kind of battleground for measuring power in international relations, and the victory of national athletes, or the organization of major international competition, are a kind of barometer of power. And maybe this helps us better understand, for example, the national celebration that was the Olympic Paralympic Games in Paris last year. But that’s another topic. Let’s return to Qatar, where sport, as you say, is used as an important tool of soft power.
As it’s in other Persian Gulf countries, Qatar’s use of sport as a soft power instrument is multifaceted, I can say that. And strategic by hosting mega events, most notably the 2022 World Cup and investing in infrastructure in sponsorship and leveraging sports diplomacy. Sport is really central to Qatar’s nation — a branding effort. Qatar seeks to project a positive image to correct outdated or negative perception, especially among Western and developed nations. And to also emerge from the shadow of regional rivals like Saudi Arabia and United Arab Emirates. So the investments are also part of its broader economic diversification strategy, aiming to reduce reliance on fossil fuels and build a sustainable post-oil economy.
David: Yeah. There are several other French clubs owned by foreign investors, like Lyon and Marseille, but they are owned by a single investor, individual investor. Do you think that the difference is that PSG is owned by a state-related company, that really makes a difference in the mind of the French population, in the way we see the club? Or is it about, like you suggest, mostly about the religion? Marseille is owned by an American investor, by the way.
Stéphane: Yes, yes, I think so, definitely. And we can add that PSG is owned by a very special state, as I said. An Arabic state, a Gulf state. And this kind of state has not in France, but also in the other European countries or maybe Western countries, a very good reputation. And we have to say also that it’s also a financial reality, the State of Qatar are many, many — a lot of money more than the U.S. investor like in Marseille or like in Lyon. That’s a reality.
Ron: I think that I really appreciate, again, similar to the connections in the earlier part of the conversation with culture and sport, we’re also thinking about the world of finance, the world of business and sport, and how this all sort of ties together. And I think it’s also worth noting that PSG along with Man City, were sort of early adopters of this model, and we’re seeing it more and more, now with Newcastle being bought by the Saudi Arabian Sovereign Fund and that sort of thing. So I think PSG, along with Man City, have become very representative of a larger thing that may or may not always be about PSG itself. So along those lines, how does PSG specifically fit into this strategy of soft power for the Qatari state? Why France, why Paris in particular?
Stéphane: No doubt about the club, PSG serve as a kind of vehicle for sportswashing helping Qatar project prestige. By purchasing PSG, Qatar did not just buy a football club, a soccer club, it acquired an internationally renowned brand, Paris. Everyone knows Paris all over the world, everywhere. Paris welcomes around 25 million international tourists. The Eiffel tower is one of the most famous monuments in the world. That is why the club’s new Qatari owners changed the logo of the club to emphasize the Eiffel Tower and the word Paris. Actually, QSI has executed a comprehensive international strategy aimed at transforming the club from a prominent French team into a globally recognized sports brand. It’s why PSG invested heavily in acquiring, recruiting, global football superstars such as Ibrahimovic, Neymar, Beckham, and so on. These high-profile signings not only improve the team’s competitiveness but also boosted PSG international appeal and commercial value. The club focused also on establishing PSG as a lifestyle and cultural brand. Not just a soccer team.
This includes partnership with major fashion brands, extensive merchandising, and collaboration that’s positioned PSG alongside the world’s most desirable sports franchises. At last, PSG launched international offices, including a key outpost in New York, Singapore, Doha — of course — to strengthen its presence in strategic markets such as Asia, Middle East, and of course, USA. By the way the Club World Cup is a good marketing opportunity for the USA for the PSG, and many commercial activity are playing during the event.
But we can say that economically speaking, it has been a great success because PSG is now valued at $4.5 billion, ranking among the world’s most valuable sports team. I would also like to say that Qatar decision to acquire PSG was also determined by its good diplomatic relations with France. David also knows that because he is also a diplomat. I would just to remind that after Qatar gained independence in 1971, France was one of the first countries to grant diplomatic recognition. In 1972, a Qatari embassy was opened in Paris, one of the first around the world, and the relationship are close in many sectors. France and Qatar signed, for example, a defense pact in 1994, and in 2009 around 80% of Qatar’s military equipment was provided by French companies. More generally, Qatar became France’s seventh largest customer and sixth largest supplier in the Middle East. It should be noted also that France passed a law in 2008 which accorded Qatari investor in Paris with certain tax exemption. In the acquisition of PSG is in fact, only part of this story.
At the heart of this story is the president – the president of French Republic, Nicolas Sarkozy, president between 2007 and 2012. And Sarkozy has a forged personal tie with the Emir of Qatar, Tamim bin Hamad Al Thani. And media investigation shows that he personally intervened to facilitate the takeover of PSG by Qatar. This will not be surprising given the overall context between the two countries, but also because Sarkozy is a big fan of PSG. Sarkozy is also said to have used his influence in awarding the World Cup to Qatar, but it must be said that all of his successors at the head of the state in France have maintained close, very close ties with Qatar for economic and strategic reasons. I think it’s very important to talk about this context.
David: Yeah. And a successful economic relationship as well, as you say, it’s also the interest of France to make business with Qatar. Well, since you mentioned President Sarkozy as a supporter of the PSG perhaps we could go back to the ground, and talk about this community of support. I remember when I was a teenager, the support, the PSG fans, they were like definitely comparable to those you can find in England, in Italy, they were really crazy. And the structure of the Parc des Princes made every game like unplayable because of the atmosphere. And the last game, actually, I attended at the Parc des Princes was the Champions League game when Liverpool came. And we had a speaker in the stadium telling the supporter when and how to react to the action. It looked just like the total, I mean, this community of supporters has radically changed in something like two decades. Oh my god, two decades. But this community has radically changed.
And at the same time, when you watch the final of the last Champions League, or even the game against Atlético Madrid in LA, last week. You hear from your TV, the PSG fan being super loud and being really committed towards their team. So how do you see that? Are they the same supporters, those who can afford a ticket at the Parc des Princes and those who are following the PSG when they are playing elsewhere in Europe, in the world, and how do you see this evolution of this community? Well, the PSG supporter basically.
Stéphane: Just before to answer I would like to point out that PSG has the third highest average attendance in its stadium last season behind — you will be happy, David — Marseille and Lyon, but with a fire rate of 99%. So the club would like to expand the stadium to increase its revenue, but it does not own the stadium as many other clubs in France, except Lyon. The stadium is owned by the city of Paris, and the city council does not want to sell it, and there is therefore tension and the club is threatening to live and build a new, larger stadium outside Paris.
And fans are very unhappy about this project because they are attached to the Parc des Princes. All around Europe, as you know, fans are deeply attached to their club’s historic stadium. And PSG is truly the club of Parisians. And it’s important to understand that this Parisian identity includes, as you say, David, suburbs — the Ile de France, the area around Paris. It wasn’t obvious at the beginning of the club’s history because in reality, as I said, most of Parisians are people who are moved from their provinces and they could have remained loyal to their roots, and they supported their local club. Of course, it exists. But Paris, PSG, sorry, is definitely the most popular club in Paris and the surrounding area.
And as you say, David, the stadium audience is therefore a very diverse, more diverse than is often thought. It’s not just the VIP. I have already mentioned in the stands. Even we don’t have, I have to say that: we don’t have any scientific studies on the social composition of the stadium audience. It’s very different. We have this kind of studies from Marseille, for example, but it’s other subject. In Paris, we don’t have. But we can say that, as in many stadiums in Europe, with a few exceptions, the majority of the audience does not belong to the working class or lower middle class, mainly due to the price of tickets. It’s mainly cosmopolitan middle classes, reflecting also the ethnic diversity of the city and also of Ile de France. This is also true for the Ultra groups, who are in the stands behind the goalkeepers — due to their activity, enthusiasm, singing, coordinated visual display created by fans that we call tifo, an Italian word. The Ultra make the Paris stadium one of the liveliest, one of the most passionate stadium in France. But Parisian Ultras have long had a bad reputation. I won’t go into detail about the history of Ultra, which in Paris as elsewhere, is often complex, with rivalries between different factions. The important thing to remember is that there were several groups spread out across the two stands behind the goal. One of these stands as called Boulogne. The other one is called Auteuil. And Boulogne boys were known for their passionate support, but also for violence and right-wing association. There were in fact inspired by English hooliganism, and they were involved in many acts of violence. In the Auteuil stand, the Supras Auteuil — the name of the group — represented a more liberal and diverse group, contrasting with the Boulogne Boy. They focuses on Italian style Ultra support, on fighting, choreography and inclusivity, but they have also been involved in violence.
Most of this group, I have to say, were disbanded by the authorities even before the Qataris arrived, and the members were banned from the stadium. At first, Qatari leaders were very wary of the uncountable Ultras who were tarnishing the club’s image, but they quickly realized that this passionate fan were essential, essential to the success of their project because these fans contribute to the show, to the entertainment. So they sought to form a new Ultras group that would enjoy the support of the club management and numerous benefits, it’s called the Collectif Ultras Paris, or CUP, and the CUP is currently the only officially recognized Ultra group by PSG. It was formed in 2017 and granted official status at the Parc des Princes later that year.
Today, most people, even outside Paris, recognize that there is a good atmosphere at the Parc des Princes. So as you say, David, we have to be agree about what means, what does it mean a good atmosphere? Maybe it is good atmosphere is close to the U.S. sport atmosphere. Not really soccer tradition in Europe as such in a English stadium at the past, because as you know, actually, in a British stadium there are a majority of international tourists also like in Paris. I think it’s an evolution of the soccer, of the football today, of the globalization. Maybe we can regret it.
David: Yeah, I mean, it’s part of the European culture and the European sport culture. So we can just observe the practices, but we also have great atmosphere in the sense that we understand it in Europe, and what we can witness at the Lumen Field. I mean, the last game against Botafogo was an amazing atmosphere and people really, really, really committed and supported their team very peacefully, but at the same time, just very loud and really, really enjoyed that. But listening to you, I was actually thinking, I mean, is there any interest for QSI to represent France, or just like the fact that Paris Saint-Germain in Paris is enough, and that there is no interest, no will, no strategy in order to be more inclusive toward the rest of the French territory? Because this is the brand, the brand is Paris, the brand is not necessarily France. And when you invest in Paris, you have a very specific strategy, very specific target, a very specific narrative. And I don’t know, this is just something that pop up to my mind.
And related to that, I’m wondering how many of the French people will support the PSG — actually, how many of French people supported PSG during the last final of the Champions League, and how much will cheer for the victory of PSG, will support the PSG during the Club World Cup?
Stéphane: As you know, there is the idea that is very widespread that PSG is an unpopular club in France, because as we have already said of the special relationship between Paris and the provinces. That’s not really true, I think. As we saw, as you say, in the recent European Champions League victory, this victory was celebrated in many French cities and in almost every region. Most commentators explains this enthusiasm was linked to the leave of the policy of recruiting star player and the quality of the team play implemented by the coach — maybe we will talk about the Luis Enrique later — that’s probably true. But it must also be said that polls show that PSG has been a growingly popular club for several years. In 2011, PSG was a favorite club of only 11% of French people, while Marseille was the favorite club of 25% of French people. Today–
David: It’s a special statistic I think it’s much more.
Stéphane: Today, even before winning the Champions League, PSG is today the favorite club of the French people. Many will therefore support PSG, which is also the only French club during the Club World Cup 25 except, for sure, Marseille fans. As you know, David, during the last Champions League final, the people of Marseille supporting opposing team Inter Milan, and it is said that all the Italian clubs jerseys were sold in Marseille before the final. So how can this be explained?
It’s common to find the roots of the rivalry between Paris and Marseille soccer or football club, sorry, in the broader political and cultural history. The emphasis is on the traditional divide between North and South, and the relationship between politically and economically dominant capital and France’s second largest city, with a rebellious spirit. I mean that Paris has a capital would symbolize political authority, wealth, and also sophistication, while Marseille would be seen, as I said, rebellious, gritty, and also proud of its working class, and proud of its Mediterranean heritage. This is partly true, but historians have shown that the reality was more complex. The reality of this relationship. Maybe David could say a few words about that, and I will not go into here.
Actually, I think that is an invented tradition, to borrow the concept of British historian Eric Hobsbawm. On soccer field, tradition is definitely invented, as we know under that circumstances. Why is the two clubs did not have a historic rivalry before the 80s? The competition intensified as PSG rose to prominence and Olympique de Marseille sought to defend its status as a football powerhouse. In reality, you know that, David, the rivalry was created by businessman Bernard Tapie, President of Marseille’s club. This rivalry was also created by the television channel Canal+. As I told before, the owner of PSG, both Tapie and Canal+, had a financial interest in making the French championship more attractive. So they created what is known in French as Le Classique, a sought of equivalent of the Spanish Clasico between Real Madrid and Barcelona. It was a good deal, and fans of both clubs continue to believe in it and fuel the rivalry. Without taking sides for Paris or Marseille, I’m really honest, it must be said that in sporting terms, there is no longer a contest today. As a matter of fact, the Qataris have far greater resources than Frank McCourt, the American owner of the Marseille club and the former owner of the American Professional baseball team, Los Angeles Dodgers. McCourt would undoubtedly have liked his team to play the Club World Cup at home in the U.S., but it will be the PSG in the American and world spotlight at the time. Sorry, David.
David: We are fine.
Stéphane: It’s just a joke.
Ron: So it strikes me in this conversation, it’s very interesting to think about the changing attitudes and approaches to thinking about PSG, the changing popularity, and I think you see that reflected in the attitudes of world football fans as well. I think particularly this last run — just sort of anecdotally — a lot more folks were sort of supportive of PSG because of the way they played, because of the shift from a strategy of the Galácticos the megastars, that felt a little more like a vanity project. And I really appreciate you, Stéphane, naming that this isn’t just a vanity project, it’s also a really good business. And I think people often forget that they’ve increased the valuation of the club massively. But given that — and then I also think Mbappe himself is a really interesting figure in the midst of this — it’s the glamor club of the French elite and they’re rich, but you have a local kid who grows up, plays for PSG, becomes a megastar, but is also part of that sort of local fabric in a different way, then leaves, and then PSG has their success, and then people are more, in world football at least, more excited to support PSG because they seem more like a collective, a little less like a vanity project. How does that play out in France among supporters, among — David, you can answer this as well — among anti-supporters, but also just in the overall cultural landscape how do people think about those shifts?
David: Yeah, well, for a very long time, one of the great difference between Paris and Marseille, that Marseille revindicates his Mediterranean legacy and the legacy of immigration. And it was part of the club narrative, it’s still part of the supporter narrative, and their own identity and the way they project themselves, the way they politically stand in the stadium when they have a message to pass and they have a lot of messages to pass. But the fact that at some point the PSG gave up on the stars, I mean, PSG didn’t totally give up on the stars when you look at the team, but at some point they promote a young football player from Paris — from the Paris area — much more diverse than what was the PSG in the 90s, where you had the big Brazilian stars. But I mean, it was like you said, Stéphane, already a club of stars, but not necessarily a club of French stars. And now PSG perhaps reflect a bit more what is the French society, or at least the Paris society. And I think at some point supporters or just football fans were expecting that, and it’s explained also the success of PSG for that. It’s maybe easier to support Doue than Neymar at some point because it tells us more about the society today. They are much more connected or still connected to the society that Messi or Neymar were when they were playing at PSG.
So I mean, it’s also about the game because we didn’t really talk about the game. I know this is not necessarily the topic of the podcast, but Paris, PSG games this year is really beautiful. And what they displayed during the finals — like they were walking upon water. So it’s definitely also this artistic dimension of football that is important, I guess, for the fan today. And that explains the support of the enthusiasm for PSG.
Stéphane: I totally agree with you, David. I would like to add, if I may, that the recruitment of megastar, Messi, Neymar, and so on, as we said before, undoubtedly served PSG marketing strategy very, very well. And now, the club is known around the world largely thanks to the social media presence of these megastars. And the profit was also boosted by the sale of jerseys around the world. But as you say, David, in sporting terms it was not a success. The teams did not really play together. In fact, all the players were there to serve the stars. There was no gaming identity, and the coach, Luis Enrique, didn’t want that anymore because his philosophy — I don’t know if we can say that — is based on ball movement. So the team comes first. That’s why he chose young players who could adapt to his game plan. And it was by playing for the team that some of them — you talk about Doue, we can talk about another one — and some of them became stars. And most importantly, the team finally won the Champions League and that was the ultimate goal of the club’s owner. Maybe it’s probably the most important.
Ron: I think along those lines, it’s really interesting to think about the role of Luis Enrique, who you’ve mentioned a couple of times, and the degree to which he brought sort of a Barcelona style of play, a Barcelona logic, with some important tweaks as well. And I think one thing that captured the imagination of a lot of world football fans was the way the story of Luis Enrique’s daughter, Xana, and her death at an early age from cancer, and the way the PSG fan-base embraced that story, to the point where the tifo before the UEFA Champions League final is a tifo of her in a PSG Jersey with Luis Enrique. I don’t know that I’ve ever seen a tifo that centered on a personal story, and particularly a coach’s personal story as opposed to a player’s personal story. What is it about that story that led PSG supporters to rally around it, or to make Xana little bit of a talisman for the campaign and sought of representative of the club in that way?
Stéphane: I don’t know very well, but maybe we can remind us that it’s a terrible story. Luis Enrique’s daughter, Xana — I think with the Spanish pronunciation — died in the 2019, following a battle with cancer, and she was 9 years-old. And Luis Enrique often talk about her, and he supports a foundation with the aim to provide assistance and support to children and young people affected by this kind of disease, as well to their family. And as you say, Ron, at the end of the Champions League final, fans paid a very moving tribute to this little girl who had passed away with a huge banner, which fans call tifo.
Luis Enrique is known for being, how can I say? Demanding coach, very serious, very tough. And he’s not always very friendly with the media also. And maybe, this unfortunate story of his little girl makes him more human, more accessible to the public. And maybe this may also contribute to make the PSG team more likable. Maybe something like this. As you say, David, because the reputation of PSG is often like a distant club, a club of range, a club of the powerful people. This story, terrible story, is so human.
David: It’s also part of something that I hear, I’ve been hearing for a couple of weeks: the resilience of the Paris Saint-Germain and Luis Enrique, anybody with, you know. And his own story is like a proper anthropological patterns. He was super successful, and then Xana died, and then he stepped back and he returned. It was like nobody can touch him, medias, football player, or whatever. I mean, he would comment on what he did in his decision, he was just like, ‘I don’t care.’ And perhaps this is what PSG needed also, to have someone, a leader like this with a charisma like this, and a strength like it demonstrated. But this idea of resilience, it’s interesting. This is also in one of the famous song of the PSG supporters. They are singing now, reminding everyone how tough it was before — I mean perhaps this is my Marseille bias — but before the PSG won the Champions League the most famous Champions League game was La Remontada against Barcelona, when PSG was just like, we were just witnessing something that is not supposed to happen. Just leading after the first game, 4 – 0, I guess, or something like this.
In eliminating from the Champions League during the second game by Barcelona, just like it was the symbol of the perpetual failure of the team. It’s something changed and it changed with also this resilient resource that at some point Luis Enrique brought to the team.
Stéphane: Yeah, you’re right. One thing doesn’t change: Luis Enrique win, always.
David: That’s true.
Stéphane: Because we have to remind that the coach of Barcelona at this terrible time of La Remontada was Enrique.
Ron: Yeah, that’s true. And two of the architects were Messi and Neymar, who later came to PSG. Well, thank you so much, both of you, for giving us so much insight into thinking about PSG, their cultural and political meanings within France, beyond France. It’s been such an enjoyable conversation and I’ve learned a lot. Any last words you want to offer before we wrap up?
Stéphane: I would another time to thank you for this invitation. It was a real pleasure to discuss with you and of course, with David. And I hope that it’s a first step of future discussion and collaboration. It will be a great pleasure.
David: Yeah, I think it’s a perfect example of how relevant the Global Sport Lab initiative is, and I’m very much looking forward we continue this conversation. And I am happy that this conversation is based in Seattle. It’s also makes sense for the Seattle community.
Ron: Fantastic. Thank you both so much for the conversation today. I really can’t thank you enough. Special thanks to the Villa Albertine for their support of this event, allowing us to have this conversation. And then, if you would like to join more conversations like this, please reach out to us at the globalsportlab.uw.edu. We look forward to hearing from you. And thanks very much. Until next time. Thanks, folks.
David: Thank you.
Stéphane: Thank you, bye.
[MUSIC PLAYING – “Merci Kylian” by Laurent Dubois]
