Ron Krabill: Hello, and welcome to the Global Sport Lab podcast. I’m Ron Krabill, and I’m your host, as well as the Director of the Lab, and a professor of Interdisciplinary Arts and Sciences at the University of Washington Bothell. Listen to the end for a more detailed description of the Global Sport Lab. But for now, let me just say that we would love for you to connect with us. You can find us on the web or via email at globalsportlab@uw.edu.
Today, we want to introduce you to a sport that I’m willing to bet the vast majority of our audience has never heard of before, and that’s Zoorkhaneh, an ancient Persian sport with elements of martial arts and dance, along with strength and agility. And I strongly encourage our listeners to look it up to watch some videos of practitioners of Zoorkhaneh to get a better sense of what we’re describing. Here at the Lab, we’re especially excited to bring you Zoorkhaneh with a bit of a twist. In Iran, it’s practiced almost solely by men, but our two guests today are extending the reach of Zoorkhaneh with an eye to gender equity and rethinking the norms and limits of gender in the process. With me today is Sara Modjib Shirazi, a graduate student at the University of Washington, who I will introduce more fully in a moment, and Farnoush Djavaheripour. Farnoush is one of the only women instructors of Zoorkhaneh. Later this afternoon, Farnoush will be giving a demonstration of Zoorkhaneh for the UW community in an event organized by Sara and co-sponsored by the Global Sport Lab. Welcome to both of you.
Sara Modjib Shirazi: Hi, Ron. Thank you so much for hosting us. It’s a pleasure for us, and I would love to introduce me first. I’m an Italian-Iranian M.A. student here at the Jackson School of International Studies. I was born and raised in Italy, and my father is from Tehran. I grew up in a multicultural family with my mother from southern Italy, Calabria, and my father from Tehran. But I’ve always been particularly close to the Iranian culture and heritage, and that’s why I also started We Are Zoorkhaneh, an intercultural nonprofit. And the aim of my nonprofit is to open up Zoorkhaneh for women, girls, and also LGBTQ+ community, and the broader public to let them know what is the philosophy, the ethics of Zoorkhaneh, and also what is the practice.
In this path, I’ve met Farnoush some months ago, and she’s an Iranian-Canadian instructor of fitness. She has 13 years experience in fitness and she drove into Zoorkhaneh six years ago. My father introduced me to Zoorkhaneh in my — when I was really, really little, and he used to talk about Zoorkhaneh mythology, Rostam, that is the embodiment of the Pahlevani, the champions, the hero that has the aim to protect the vulnerable with passion, humbleness, and kindness.
Last year, I started to develop this idea to open Zoorkhaneh to everyone who wants to do it. But the project was really complicated to make it live, because in Seattle, in the Pacific Northwest, we don’t have any Zoorkhaneh instructors, we don’t have equipment. And so it was a kind of mission for me to find someone that has the experience in Zoorkhaneh. And then I met Farnoush by social media. I follow her page, she promotes Zoorkhaneh, the sport, and the different portions that the sport has, that Farnoush will talk a little about it later, and she fortunately replied to one of my emails, and she said, “okay, I want to collaborate with you for this workshop,” and we get in touch. I also have the fortune to go to Toronto some months ago and train with her for the first time Zoorkhaneh, so it was really, really, really interesting.
RK: Fantastic. Thank you so much. And we are just so honored to have you here, Farnoush. Thank you for being here. Let me start maybe by asking you, Farnoush, to describe just what Zoorkhaneh is, and how your own journey began, including what led you to share Zoorkhaneh on social media.
Farnoush Djavaheripour: Pahlevani Zoorkhaneh are traditional Iranian martial arts and athletic practices that combine physical exercises with ethics, spirituality, and cultural heritage and traditions. Born in Tehran, Iran, I’m a rhythmic and synchronized group fitness instructor in Canada. Since childhood, during the journeys through various paths in the field of art, poetry, music, and dance, besides sport and movement, which also revived a mystical feeling in me, I have always found all these concepts already in my fruits. In search of a way to combine all these elements together, and in one place, inevitably I became acquainted with the ancient national sport of Zoorkhaneh while abroad. And I learned it spontaneously as a one-man army, and outside the confines of the gym — I mean pit — of Zoorkhaneh. And of course, along this path, I benefited from the guidance and assistance of great Iranian athletes and mentors remotely from a long distance. As a coach of Zoorkhaneh, I’m working on expanding this field by making worldwide online groups, teaching online and making contents in social media, teaching a group in person, and building my team and performing in live cultural events in Canada.
RK: Fantastic. And can you tell us a little more about what the philosophy is behind the sport, and what values does it carry?
FD: Yes, of course. The philosophy of the Iranian Zoorkhaneh, or House of Strength, is much deeper than physical exercise. It’s a spiritual, ethical, and cultural tradition that combines strength with humility, morality, and service to others.
RK: Fantastic. And Sara, I’m wondering if you can say a little more about how you got involved in Zoorkhaneh. What drew you to it personally? You already mentioned it a little bit, but I’d love to hear more. And I also wonder if you can just sort of give a picture of what the sport looks like for our listeners if they haven’t seen it before.
SMS: Yeah, sure. So, for replying for the first question, I need to go back to my primary school and high school. It’s not gonna take too long. [LAUGHTER] But we need for the context. So I, as I said, I grew up in Italy, in Rome, Roma. And in the early 2000s, the Iranian community were about 5,000 people all over Italy. So really, really few Iranians. And I remember, for example, in my primary school I was the only one with little brown skin. And the only Iranian, of course. So, when people asked me, “Where are you from?” I replied, “I’m from Italy.” But yet they said, like, “oh, but you’re so brown. Is it possible?” I said, “Okay, my father’s from Iran.” They didn’t even know where Iran is. So, it was completely a lack of awareness and knowledge about Iran.
RK: Right.
SMS: And this sadly made me experience a lot of discrimination and racism for my features, for my culture, for just my aspect. And at some point of my life, at the beginning, in like, in the primary school, I was still little, I used to hate a little bit my roots. At some point, this really bad experience made me feel really proud of my roots and of my heritage, and also my father had helped me a lot to get closer and closer to Iran, as a known Farsi speaker. I don’t speak Farsi, unfortunately. But he helped me to get closer and know more about the food, the music, the sport, and the culture.
So, this sport in general in my life has been really, really important to overcome the pain coming from discrimination and racism. It made me feel more resilient, more strong in mind and in my body, and also it helped me to get in contact with a lot of people from different cultures. Last year when I received the news that I was accepted to the UW, I wanted to bring, create something here, study something here for the second-generation Iranians like me that want to get closer to the culture, and that also want to connect with the broader community to let them know that Iran is not only about bad things. Or that you can listen to the news, but there’s a lot more behind Iran, and about the food, the music, the rhythm. Things that some people, they generally don’t know, because they are not from Iran, maybe they don’t have any friends in Iran, so it’s totally normal.
But eventually, I realized that folks love to know more about new cultures. And so actually I spent two weeks in my room to try to realize and be creative, and realize something that could have an impact on the second-generation Iranians and Iranian community in Seattle. And then I remembered that my father always used to talk to me about Zoorkhaneh, and there’s a whole philosophy behind Zoorkhaneh, it’s not only a sport, like, “oh, okay, I go to the gym, I do squats, I lift weights.” No, it’s — there’s a philosophy of being humble, of being kind with the others, of being a Pahlevani, which is a hero, a champion that protects the other. And so I tried to combine all these elements. I tried to combine well-being with sports.
The fact that … in Iran, women are not allowed to practice this sport. And the fact that is general … this sport is really valuable for the society, meaningful for the society. And so I tried to combine all these elements, and I started my nonprofit with the aim of fostering intercultural dialogue, so mutual understanding, diversity and gender equity in sports, practicing Zoorkhaneh, all together. So for example, the first event will be today, which is May 14 at Alder Commons UW, and many people are coming — Iranians, non-Iranians, Chinese people, Spanish people from the Latino community to train together and create a community around this sport. This is the the idea, and I hope, I really hope that people after the event, they go back home and they feel better individually, you know, and they want to do meaningful things for the for the society. This is the idea behind it.
RK: Part of what strikes me is doing this work with the Global Sport Lab, of course, there are many times where we hear about discrimination or inequity within sport, but then we also hear stories like yours where sport also becomes a place to battle that inequity or battle that discrimination and sort of find strength and resilience within it. And I’m always struck by the degree to which sport can be both, depending on the context, and depending, frankly, how we build out sport. What you’re doing, what you’re both doing is building out sport in a more creative way and a more inclusive way. Sara, if you can just say a little bit more about what the sport actually looks like for those who aren’t familiar with it?
SMS: Yeah, sure. So this sport, at first, when you see the sport, you realize that it’s not like any other sport that you can see in your daily life. So this sport is a combination between music, so rhythm, a specific rhythm for Zoorkhaneh that is played with the Zarb, that is a huge Persian drum. And coordination between music, rhythm, strength, and also coordination, because you need to coordinate with the music, and the person that plays the music, his name is the Morshed, that is like the master. When he plays the music, he needs to coordinate with your movement. It’s like a synergy between who plays the music and who trains.
This sport has eight portions, eight parts. The first one is Sang Gereftan, the second is Sheno-raftan, the third is Narmesh, then we have Mil Gereftan, Mil Bazi, Pa Zadan, Kabadeh Keshidan, and then at the end Koshti Pahlevani. In this sport the order is really important, and they usually start with the Sang. Okay, so in this sport you train in a circle, and it’s really important to keep the eye contact with the others who are training and be in sync with the others. And they usually start doing Sang. There is like, how can I translate Sang in English?
RK: I think I would describe them as clubs. Is that the … oh, no. Wrong one.
FD: Persian meels?
SMS: No it’s not the … No, the Sang in English. How can I translate?
FD: Shields.
RK: Shields.
FD: Yeah.
SMS: Shields. So the first, first portion is Sang Gereftan, and Sang has these huge shields, and you practice this portion being on the ground. And people with more experience that sometimes usually are the Miandar practice this portion, while the other people are encircled and looking for them, look at them practicing this portion, and the second is a Sheno-raftan, that is basically push-ups. Of course, in each portion you can go deeper, because for example, for the Sheno, there is a different type of Sheno. And then is Narmesh that is like warming up after you do the Sheno, because after you do the push up, I really, I’ll tell you, I tried it. Your arms will be destroyed, totally destroyed, because we, they do like a lot, a lot of push up.
So then you need to warm up a little bit, doing some movement with the rhythm and moving your body. And then you have the Mil Gereftan and Mil Bazi, the meels are these Persian, it’s called Persian clubs, and you will see them like swinging in their back and training the upper body part, and then Pazadan is footwork, so it’s a portion that sees them use a combination of music and some like candle dance movement. I will translate like this. And then there’s Kabadeh. Kabadeh is an iron bow. And so you shake this iron bow above your head with coordination with the music. And then at the end, is there’s the Koshti Pahlevani that, you can see it sometimes, not always. Right, Farnoush?
FD: Yeah, it used to be common that after they were practicing the whole Zoorkhaneh … into the procedure. After that, two people were doing Koshti Pahlevani.
SMS: Yes, like wrestling, right?
FD: Yeah.
SMS: Tell me if it’s right.
FD: Wrestling, yeah. And even the pants, Pahlevani tonbān, or pants, are very chic, because at that time they were making them for wrestlers. They were lifting each other by the waist from the waistline, so they used to be from leather or sometimes irons, they were using irons into it. So it was very thick and heavy.
RK: Fantastic. It’s super helpful to hear the description. And again, I encourage people to look up videos as well. I’ll say the first time I saw the clubs, as someone who has a former shoulder injury, I was like, wow, like that’s amazing, the sort of strength and coordination and agility to be able to do what they do, that’s fantastic. Thanks. So, I wonder, Farnoush, if you can tell us a little more about what Zoorkhaneh means to the Persian people and why it’s controversial today.
FD: Yeah. Unfortunately, during the last 47 years, especially, it has not been introduced in a good way. But in general, in Zoorkhaneh, or House of Strength, athletes perform rhythmic movements using tools like clubs and shields, accompanied by music and poetry rooted in ancient Persian traditions. Pahlevani emphasizes strength, discipline, humility, and community, and is recognized by UNESCO as an important element of Iran’s intangible cultural heritage. As a patriotic Iranian, I think it’s my duty to revive, preserve, recover, and elevate its oldest cultural heritage as the world’s first scientific bodybuilding sport, which for years has been accompanied by defiance, deviation, and gender discrimination due to ignorance resulting from the undeveloped culture of some people or wrong politics.
For many women today training in Zoorkhaneh can carry several meanings at once. Physical, cultural, emotional and even philosophical. But they have been prohibited from doing this sport for years. Historically, Zoorkhaneh spaces, as I said before in Iran, were traditionally male-only for centuries, shaped by older social and religious customs. But the values behind Zoorkhaneh, like courage, discipline, humility, Javanmardi, meaning noble conduct, and service, are not inherently male values, so increasingly women in Iran and the diaspora have practiced and revived these traditions in their own ways.
So, for a woman, training Zoorkhaneh may mean reclaiming a strained connection to Iranian heritage, a different definition of femininity, spiritual and ethical training, cultural resistance and visibility, community and belonging, but we have missed these values for years. And this has been one of the reasons that it has not become popular between majority of people, including men or women, because when you put women away from something, it lost half value of it, especially women have specific abilities and talent to add to something, so our society has missed many values and many talents, so they haven’t been able to reshape and elevate this sport.
And also, that’s why this sport couldn’t enter the Olympic Games, because there are two conditions, one of them is if a sport wants to enter the Olympics, it should be practiced in 11 countries. The other one is it should be both men and women participating, so that’s why specifically Iran, who has been the center of this sport, and there are not many countries who do this sport, so when they eliminated the presence of women, so that’s … this is what’s happening, and also they emphasize the religion into this sport, specifically in the last 47 years. So it’s not optional. That you have to. You’re like, you have to believe in something, a specific religion, to be able to enter Zoorkhaneh practices. And you have to express those words, express those prayers, and also you have to believe in and also listen to those things.
So many people have different religions, many people have different beliefs, but still they are interested in their cultural heritage, they are interested in that sport, or they want to have the opportunity to examine themselves, to try it, to see if they can do it or not. And so a human being is a complicated existence. We haven’t given them this opportunity, and we just limited this sport to a specific religion. We emphasized on it too much radicalisms, elimination of women’s presence. They all have damaged and suffered this sport. That’s why people, directly or indirectly, irrationally, even, the people who have no knowledge about this sport, majority of our own people have no knowledge. And they consider this sport as a dead sport, even outside of Iran. Even people like me, they either don’t know anything about it, or they don’t care, or they don’t really like it, because they remember, like, the bad part of it, the bad fiction and the bad culture that has been penetrated into this. And also the culture that has been spreading out from this sport, they feel it, the people feel the negative energy, that’s why they are not interested.
But this is what I have tried to do for years, during the last six years, however, I myself got familiar with this sport at the age of 39. But still I was so lucky and blessed. Thank you, God. I had no idea about this sport’s existence, and then when I got to know this, I was so embarrassed. I said, “shame on me.” How is that possible, that I don’t know my own national sport? The national sport, this treasure, the treasure of my country. It’s so embarrassing. I felt so bad, and since then I tried to move fast, like I worked 24 hours, seven days a week, and it has been crazy. People around me couldn’t understand it. And they were showing me the hatred about this sport. What is it? “It is just a man-ish sport. It’s just lumpen’s culture.” It’s just, “it’s cheap,” it’s this and it’s that. “It makes your muscles look ugly,” and many, many untrue, non-scientific things. But the miracle of this sport, I personally, I felt it, and I tried to make my own decision and take my own way, and so that’s what it is. Hopefully, we can change these bad attitudes in people.
RK: I think the way you said that is really beautiful, and it’s a history that’s repeated in the history of sport, where exclusions, whether it’s by gender, by race, by whatever it is, it ends up doing damage to the sport, and it’s in the name of protection, or in the name of something, but the way that turns people against a sport, because they feel that exclusion, they feel the negativity, and they’re like, “I’m not interested in that,” right?
FD: Yeah, because some people have used this as a tool to advertise non-related things, they advertise a specific religion, specific politics, they entered politics into this, so it’s in the hands of the politicians, so it’s not free. But this sport comes from the nature, from the daily routine of people, comes from the streets, from poor society also. Everyone could be a part of it, but they have just limited it and have used it as a tool that I’m against it.
RK: So, can you say a little bit more? And you already have been, but I’m curious, if you can just tell us a little more about this sort of battle around reclaiming the sport that you’re now part of, but it sounds like there are others involved as well, that sort of invisible battle between the ancient roots of Persia, Zoroastrian, and pre-Islamic sort of roots, and the Islamic Republic’s Shia framing, and why it matters to reclaim those roots today.
FD: This sport has belonged 2,000 years ago. We have hand scripts and evidence and documents in Iran. For example, in Loristan mountains, we have paintings on the mountains, and a lot of hand scripts that prove this sport existed from, like, even 1,000 years before Islam entered the country. They were using fabrics named Koshti, that’s what the name of Koshti, or wrestling, comes from. It used to be the name of those fabrics they were wrapping around their waists while doing wrestling to protect their waist and their abdominal. But the reality is that Islam entered the country, and so many things got affected by this religion, our architecture, our music, our hand script. Many things. Many people believed in it, and they got it. They got the influence, but mostly this sport got involved with religion when Mongols attacked the country. When they attacked our country, they were killing everyone, ruining, raping girls. Nothing could stop them.
Iranians were smart. They used to practice a sport in the basements, in the hidden places below the ground, under the ground. So it was supposed to be hidden, so they could easily, safely practice to get ready for the war. So when the Mongols attacked the country, they entered, also, they found out about these areas under the ground. The only thing they were expecting was religion. The only thing. So, Iranians used this religion to protect themselves. They said, “oh, please, if you come here, we have, it’s Islamic.” If you have religion here, you can’t kill, you can’t pour blood. That’s why they, even, one of the reasons that they make the entrance low, so you have to bend your head. They were teaching them the humility, and also they had to get permission from the Morshed. This one of the rituals, Zoorkhaneh ritual, they have to get permission before entering, and then kissing the ground means respecting the ground. So they were also emphasizing on this aspect beside the religion to teach Mongols, “oh, here is a safe place and a religious place, it has respect,” so they were not … yeah, that’s how this culture got involved, Zoorkhaneh culture got involved with religion strongly.
The second time that it really got influence from Islam was in Safavid era. That Islam, Shia, especially Shia, got boosted. So, it was less like a very romantic nice time that even art, poetry, and all those beautiful aspects got elevated and got also Islam— it was when they started to build mosques more. We had more mosques at that time, and at that time, the people who were like mullahs used to just perform in the palaces. So they started sending them to the mosques. They built mosques, and they sent them out. That was when it started to be like that, and so it was a second era.
But, in my opinion people nowadays, we have different situation circumstances, and people must be free to choose how they want to practice something. And with any beliefs they have, probably it changes their mind, so they must be allowed to enter. And the thing that we have to emphasize is the real identity, like when something belongs 2,000 years ago, so we have to consider all this time, not only, you know, just two eras. Yeah, that’s what I think, and also because this sport was structured by a great mystic athlete, poet, and founder of Zoorkhaneh, Pouryā-ye Vali, 700 years ago in Mongols’ time. Pouryā-ye Vali structured this sport to our current format that you see. So these all have respect, I think. And we have to revive and preserve it, keep the fundamentals. It shouldn’t be changed, but we can elevate it, we can boost it, and we shouldn’t mix it with many things that are not necessary. So that’s what I believe that should be done, and all different beliefs must have opportunity to practice in their own way.
SMS: Yeah.
RK: Thanks for that history. It’s a fantastic history. It reminds me a lot, I’m not sure if the two of you are familiar with capoeira from Brazil.
FD: Oh, yeah, it’s amazing, yeah.
RK: It’s a very similar history of, sort of, a way of practicing combat that then has to sort of disguise itself, because in this case of capoeira, this is in Brazil, and it’s about slavery, and it’s like, “no, no, this is a dance,” even though it’s actually practicing hand-to-hand combat, and it sounds very similar to the basement. That sort of like, “no, no, this is religion, this is not,” you know, to in order to be able to keep practicing it. I wonder, Sara, if you can say a bit more about both the mission and vision of We Are Zoorkhaneh, and also if you feel any fear practicing the sport publicly, showing up on social media, or even traveling to Iran, given how politically charged the sport is, and the ways that Farnoush has been telling us about.
SMS: Yeah, so about the mission and vision, I will connect with the really interesting things that Farnoush said. So, the vision and the mission of We Are Zoorkhaneh is strictly connected to the modern story of Zoorkhaneh, and what we want to revive and recreate with this organization. The activist work that we are doing together with Farnoush, and she’s also, actually, she’s mentoring me, so she’s teaching me a lot.
RK: I love that. That’s so beautiful.
SMS: Yeah, I’m glad. And so our mission and vision is to force, first of all, is, we have different mission and vision, actually. One of these is to make Iranians know about this sport. For example, when I started this organization, I get in contact with a lot of Iranians, say, “okay, I’m doing this, come and try, train together.” They said, “oh, what is Zoorkhaneh? I never heard about it.” So, a lot of Iranians, actually, yeah, they don’t know. They don’t know anything about this sport, and another goal that we have is to open it up for women and girls, because, for example, another feedback that people gave me, Iranians especially, said, “Oh, this sport is for men,” but it doesn’t mean that this is fair, you know, this is right.
So I noticed the lack of participation for women for this sport, so I would love for women, Iranians and non-Iranians, to come and try it, also to value what women in Iran are going through, and hopefully one day to be able for them to practice it, and also be able for women, Iranian women in the diaspora, to practice it without any kind of stigma and issue. Because for example, as I said, Farnoush is mentoring me, and every time we talk, she says, “be careful,” because this sport is not as a normal sport, and there’s a lot of politics around it, there’s a lot of stigma, so everything you do, you should do correctly, because we are still in the time that this sport is not open for women. And we represent the sport, so we should act as a Pahlevani, like in the right way. For example, Farnoush, you had some, like bad experience on social media, right? If you feel comfortable to share it.
FD: Yeah, when I started myself, everything was against me. And as I told you, all eyes are toward us to find something we do wrong to use it against us in a massive way, like in a bad way, so, exaggerating. So, they don’t care … how a man does something, but as women, it’s very, our situation has been very sensitive. And if I personally, I was not in love with this sport, because I didn’t care what people said, what people thought, nothing. I was in love, deeply, and I was so absorbed into this sport, and I was just focusing on learning the techniques correctly. But I try to ignore many things, but it has been heartbreaking. So, it could easily change someone’s mind.
Even my Morshed was asking me one day, my Morshed told me, “Mrs. Djavaheripour, let’s forget about this, we don’t want you to suffer. We don’t want, it’s so hard what people say against you, what people say.” As a man, they couldn’t stand it, but I felt myself, I felt strong enough to stand it, because I knew I had hope, I had a vision to this sport. But I told you that you have to be very careful, there are a lot of things against us, and a lot of scenarios. And from the region we are coming from, unfortunately, many men — some men is better, I’ll say that. I don’t want to offend anyone — they want to dominate women. So they have used this tool, they want to have something for themselves, that to say, “okay, we only can do it, and women can’t do it.” So it has been, I think, a big mistake, because I told you it has ruined our society, and that’s why people don’t know anything about this sport. They didn’t want … and right now they asked me not to advertise. Not to, many people don’t … They say you shouldn’t teach this sport. It’s men, our Iranian men’s tradition, don’t teach it to non-Iranians. So they will …
SMS: They were closing.
FD: Yeah, they will claim one day that this belonged to them. And I said, “what a pity.” It’s a wrong imagination, I can’t even, you know, imagine how this is possible, because there is only one way in the world, it’s the right way, we have a saying, it’s impossible things happening, but you have to do the right thing. Because now I teach a lot of non-Iranian students, and I like them. I see them, they are all human beings, and it doesn’t mean that because I’m from a country, I’m a great person, and somebody is not from my country, wants to commit a crime. No. So we have to, if it has big energy, belong to 1000 years, we have to, we have a responsibility and duty to spread it, to let other people know it, learn it, and get the benefit from it. We have kept this energy into the bubbles, that’s why we, as Iranians, don’t have a good situation right now. All the negative energy.
SMS: Yeah.
FD: We have to let it go, flow the energy so whatever goes around comes around. That’s what I believe in.
SMS: Yeah, for example, the first time we met in Toronto some months ago, we record a video of our first training, swinging the meels, and when we post it, I receive an insult in the comment section, like from an Iranian saying — it was a man — “what are you doing, what are you doing.” So there’s still this mentality, this stigma around the sport, but our mission together is to open it up, open it up.
And another pillar and main objective of We Are Zoorkhaneh is also to think youth as change makers. So, I’m young, I’m 26 years old. I started this nonprofit for zero, so zero experience in nonprofit area, totally alone in my little bedroom of UW dorm, and I really believe that our, my generation, and also second-generation Iranians, can boost the tradition of the sport. So we don’t want to change it. It’s perfect the way it is. All the philosophy is amazing, and everyone should embrace it, but just boost it for more people to know about it, to know how to approach the sport, and how to train it, and also how to bring it in life. For many of people that are listening, maybe it’s not easy to understand what is a Pahlevani. So I’m gonna say an example.
FD: Actually, the ones that claim about Pahlevani that “it’s ours,” just our Iranian men, not anyone else’s —
RK: Can you say what Pahlevani translates to? What it means?
FD: Pahlevan, in its heart, Pahlevani teaches you to be someone who is not physically strong, but is noble in character. It’s very, this sport is character maker, character builder. And the many people you see named Pahlevan, they just focus on the physical part, and even they make them worse than what they, who they were before. They get dominant, they get selfish, they get arrogant. You don’t see anything ethical, spiritual on them, nothing, no manner.
And I have experienced one myself a few days ago, when I was traveling here from Toronto, because I work at the gym. So I had — we had an incident in the gym, and I experienced someone, a man, who, the way he was walking and the way he attacked a woman, because that woman was not able to finish her set on the machine fast, and probably she was a little older than him, and she was not fit. She was taking more time resting on the machine, so it was making that man very mad, because he wanted to enjoy himself finishing his set. He couldn’t wait, and we saw very harsh behavior. So that’s when I experienced being non-Pahlevan, being an athlete and hero, but not Pahlevan. So, we have a saying that “Adab az ki amokhti? Az bi adaban,” means “who did you learn ethic?” And the person answers, “from rude people.” So, when you see someone rude, you understand what is the opposite.
SMS: Also another example. This is funny. There is creating a community around Zoorkhaneh and Farnoush introduced me in this community. So, there’s some different people spread all over Canada and America that do the sport and get in contact with them. So one of these guys, he trains Zoorkhaneh, and the other day he flirts with me, so I told that to Farnoush, and she said, “oh, this is not Pahlevani, because you are working, and you’re doing this work with your nonprofit, and he was supposed to have respect on you, and in your work, not to make you feel uncomfortable.” So that wasn’t Pahlevani, that wasn’t like kindness and respect on the others. So this is the meaning, yeah. I think this is a good example. [LAUGHTER]
FD: Especially when you are in a professional mission, it’s not your private life. And as I told you, from now on, we are all public figures, so we can say everything is not anyone’s business, it’s our private life. No, whatever we do, even in our personal life is presenting this sport, and we are representatives, so we have to be very careful. And the thing that happened to you was not professional, because you are one of the only women who want to promote this, and you are a founder, so when you are in a professional mission, someone, even if he likes you, this is not the way. Flirting, like first or second time with you, because what many people against women’s presence in Zoorkhaneh claim is that they have a saying that if women come to this sport, they’re going to ruin it. Or, I don’t want to say the very bad word, they claim this. So we don’t want this to happen, so our job is more difficult.
SMS: Yeah.
FD: This is how destiny has assigned for us, probably. We are the ones who do the harder job, we give birth, this is the most difficult thing. We bear a child for nine months, so it has been assigned for us to do the difficult job. And always a job that is more difficult, will be more beautiful in result. So we have been designed to suffer somehow, so that’s why we have to, but it feels something good will come out of it, you know.
SMS: Yeah.
FD: I’ve experienced in my own work, I tried too hard, but I could deliver something more beautiful, more completed. Yeah.
RK: It’s the classic double standard that women face throughout society, in any sector, but it seems especially sometimes in sport.
FD: Right.
RK: And breaking boundaries down in sport, women often are held to that unfair standard, unfair expectation. Farnoush, I wonder if you can tell us a little more about how the Iranian government has used Zoorkhaneh as a soft power tool, both domestically and internationally, and what that means for Iranians in the diaspora who may want to practice it authentically.
FD: Yeah, the government, our country is a very multi-standard country, specifically from the vision of our country, our government, what they have done. So it’s important what benefits them. It comes first, even many wrong things get right, and many right things get wrong. The politics state the first and last word. It’s very important, the politics. Everything is religious and political in our country, the schools, universities, even if you go to the airport, all offices, all everything, the police, judicial system.
Specifically, this sport also has been run and managed by the government, and they have been strongly against women’s presence, women’s freedom, even in other sports. That’s why women, after a specific age, they can’t participate in many, many sports of Olympics because they have to learn a specific way, and they don’t allow them. Nowadays, right now that I’m talking to you, things are even more complicated, worse, and very unclear, and because of the political situation that we have been experiencing after January. And many crimes have happened, but for sure it has been always this sport has been opened their hand, very religious, and for sure no women allowed into this.
RK: So Sara, you describe We Are Zoorkhaneh as a nonpartisan organization, but the act of opening Zoorkhaneh to women and to people of all backgrounds is inherently political. So, how do you think about that? How do you hold that tension?
SMS: Yeah, this is a really good question. So, when I decided to start this journey, I was truly, really aware of what I was doing, because if you promote the sport as women, it will be really challenging to go back to Iran, even for holidays or vacation, because they know. They know it. And so, like, all over the world, there is some people that work for the Islamic regime. My father called them jâsus. It’s like spies. And so they work for, they just conduct their daily life, but they have a relationship with the Iranian government, and they kind of spite you, so when [they] see you, being active for women, Iranian women especially, yeah, they’re gonna report to the government. And if you want to go there for holiday, or, they can stop you at the border, or even worse, they let you in in Iran, and then only God knows what is up, what can happen to you. They can come to your hotel or home and bring you, I don’t know, to even to the prison or beat you or whatever.
So when I started this nonprofit, I was aware that for a bit I wouldn’t be able to go back to Iran. Yeah. So it’s really, really controversial, and I’m also aware that in the Iranian diaspora, there’s many different ways of thinking, different perspectives, and most of the time people, then, they don’t have respect of someone’s opinion. So I’m ready, as Farnoush also is teaching me. I’m ready for people that can come to me and they can judge me, and I’m ready for this.
And unfortunately, the Iranian diaspora community, they don’t accept different opinions for some kind of arguments or topics. Also, as a nonpartisan organization, we promote peace and resilience through sport, so we don’t want to be engaged in any political view, and we just want people to gather together from different cultures, religion, and political view, and enjoy the sport, and train and create relationship and connection. So I think the vision and the mission is really, really beautiful, but I am aware that some people cannot understand this. I’m ready for what can happen.
RK: Makes complete sense, and yeah, I mean it just highlights, again, the ways in which authoritarian regimes make life so difficult on so many levels, sort of across the board, right?
SMS: Yeah, totally.
RK: Farnoush, maybe to wrap us up, what do you want people to take away from Zoorkhaneh, not just as a sport but as a way of living?
FD: As I said, Zoorkhaneh is from people’s daily routine, from daily life. Whatever you eat, flowing in your daily routine, and it should be in your blood, it should be in your veins. One of the Zoorkhaneh guys told me something interesting once. He said a person who gets Zoorkhaneh athlete or renamed Bastani-kar, that his destiny has been like that before he was born, or she was born. It has been assigned for her to be Bastani. It should be your blood. If it’s not in your blood, you can’t get connected. So it’s a very deep, it has things to do with the deep layers of your body, your existence, your spirit. So people have to discover themselves.
I have never tried to advertise as a sport. I presented, I performed, I had my page, my only triple when I opened during Corona time from the first video I did it, and somebody told me you are a storyteller. They read me because there are also wise people, nice people. We just talked about bad ones, but there are a few, you know. Still, I believe there are more good people in the world rather than bad. Otherwise, we couldn’t stay here. We couldn’t stay here. But someone told me, when I was performing, I was presenting, I really didn’t think that everyone should fall in love with what I do, but I like to introduce it, and to give this opportunity to people to have, get knowledge, and then decide. You know, that’s what I have tried to do.
That’s why I’m not against any religion, any beliefs, just I want this freedom for people to decide themselves, to get the knowledge, right knowledge, and right information to decide this sport can boost your strength in a different level. It can help your brain, mind-body connection. It’s great for musical ear. It brings rhythm to your life, freedom to your body, and also the Javanmardi aspects, or all humility, morality, service to others, all ethical, moral trainings that these days are getting diminished. You don’t see them, especially in West. We are a young generation. They have no idea what is Javanmardi. They just want their food ready, everything ready. They just are, they are sitting for money, their own benefit. And you see, even in, even children of us, people like us, you see that there is a kind of selfishness in all of them, they just think about themselves. Being opinionated, and everyone is thinking about their own benefits, right?
But we need to keep this culture and revive it to bring all those great meanings back to the life, so because now that is in this robotic world, things are going nowhere, I believe. It’s not nice. We are missing many, many things in our lives. A lot of meanings are being missed, so this Pahlevani, Maktaba Pahlevani, we say, like Javanmardi style, it’s a style of living, it’s not just a bunch of movements. This style can bring all those meanings, philosophies back to life. So I think ancient warriors, ancient people were wiser from many sides, you know.
SMS: So this is just the beginning. Join us for our next event, and follow us on social media.
RK: Yes, please. Thank you all for both your incredible sort of ethic and wanting to call us to a higher ethic, and all your energy towards building something really special and really exciting here. It’s really quite incredible work, yeah. And please know that we’re also thinking about you in the midst of so much conflict, both internationally and within the country of Iran, and that we’re just hoping for the best for you and your entire community.
SMS: We appreciate it.
FD: Thank you so much for inviting us and having us. And great to meet you.
SMS: Thank you so much for the university’s Global Sport Lab, and thank you, Ron, for inviting us.
RK: I appreciate you. It’s been a true honor and pleasure. So, thank you, thank you. Thank you so much for the conversation today, Farnoush and Sara. And special thanks to all of you for listening. To say a bit more about the Global Sport Lab, we are a new collaboration based in the Jackson School of International Studies at the University of Washington, Seattle, in partnership with my own school, Interdisciplinary Arts and Sciences at UW Bothell. The Lab uses the lens of sport to explore the big issues of our global world, from migration, politics, inequity, racism, and gender discrimination to popular culture, democracy, human rights, and the economy, to name just a few. We are particularly focused on the global sport of football, better known as soccer in the United States, during the run-up to Seattle’s hosting of the FIFA Men’s World Cup in 2026. But we are also interested in a wide range of sports, well-known and less well-known as we’ve seen today, and from the grassroots to the professional levels, and how they help us make meaning of the world.
Special thanks to musician and scholar of global football, Laurent Dubois, and WOTI Production for the use of our theme music, “Merci Kylian,” available on Spotify and Apple Music. If you would like to join more conversations like this, please reach out to us at globalsportlab@uw.edu. We look forward to hearing from you. Thanks, and keep playing.
